HARTMANN & WEISS 9.3X74R Double Rifle.

[z375]

Be careful mate,You know what "Fat ladies" can do to eyeful young boys

Oh yes! Dont get me started on that!! Get your mind out of the gutter, Bespoke!!

[eljefe]

In terms of metallurgy, craftsmanship, quality and durability of modern day DB rifle manufacturers the HEYM of Germany are widely considered to be ROLLS ROYCE of rifle manufacturers.

With all due respect
Wake up and smell the coffee. getting a bit tiring, all the fairy dust you're sprinkling. Yes, Sabatti or Heym DO make good DR, but comparing those to a H&H or a WR IS a bit like comparing a Standard Herald to a Rolls Royce. On the flipside, actually,I've ridden in one of the old monsters-bit like a lorry, albeit a smooth one.

[Bespoke]

Oh yes! Dont get me started on that!! Get your mind out of the gutter, Bespoke!!

Go ahead.I am good at narrating too

Yes, Sabatti or Heym DO make good DR, but comparing those to a H&H or a WR IS a bit like comparing a Standard Herald to a Rolls Royce. On the flipside, actually,I've ridden in one of the old monsters-bit like a lorry, albeit a smooth one.

+1 Eljefe .I would say Searcy,Merkel and Verney Carron are comparable to Heym.Sabatti thats a diffrent story.

[hks2056]

There appears to be a lot of misconceptions about what constitutes a top class modern day contemporary rifle. I find that many think that embellishments and engravings including case color hardening and perhaps mirror shine type of bluing goes to designate a rifle as top notch weapon.Beauty is only skin deep. It applies most aptly to firearms. The following factors determine the quality of finished rifle.
a] the steel alloy used for rifle barrel and action.Despite the passage of more than a century the best barrel steel manufacturer are still Boehler and Krupp, both of them are German. Almost all H&H and other well known English gun makers used Boehler steel. If one gets chance to see Dissembled H&H Royal ejector then one can see Boehler Steel Indentations on the under side.
b] The same applies for the bolt and receiver.Interestingly none of the grand English gun houses made their own bolt actions. The were imported from specialist manufacturers in continent at Liege and Herstaal. Interestingly even today the most premium mauser bolt action manufacturer is Duomolin of Herstaal.
c] most barrels today are made on hammer forging machines made by STEYR of Austria. IFB also uses the same machines for our 315 and 30-06. Discerning buyers specifically order a hook cut barrel which is time consuming and expensive. The advantage of hook cut over hammer forged is that the rifle does not walk from shot to shot even after heating up after repetitive shots.
d] the next factor is how close the machining tolerances are.
e] high quality heat treatment of metal parts determines the longevity of the weapon.
f] rifle designs of hunting rifles have become fairly standard in last 100 years.Any new so called design is just a copy cat with cosmetic changes as close scrutiny would reveal.
g] the best stocks are synthetic stocks. All serious competition rifles in international competitions come with synthetic stocks.
NOW THE FOLLOWING FOOD FOR THOUGHT:-
STATEMENT A: A modern day Perazzi shotgun would shoot better, more accurately, more consistently, more reliably and would outlast any H&H or Purdey ever made.
STATEMENT B: Those of you who follow African hunting threads would know that most successful professional hunting rifle in Africa in last hundred years is BRNO model 602. (It is sad that original BRNO factory stopped in 1987-88)
STATEMENT C: A fancy name means a fancy rifle and not necessarily the best rifle.
STATEMENT D: Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

[Bespoke]

I will try and answer your points one by one mate

There appears to be a lot of misconceptions about what constitutes a top class modern day contemporary rifle. I find that many think that embellishments and engravings including case color hardening and perhaps mirror shine type of bluing goes to designate a rifle as top notch weapon.Beauty is only skin deep. It applies most aptly to firearms. The following factors determine the quality of finished rifle.

The Beauty is not skin deep its deeper looks inside locks of a best London gun and you would know.

a] the steel alloy used for rifle barrel and action.Despite the passage of more than a century the best barrel steel manufacturer are still Boehler and Krupp, both of them are German. Almost all H&H and other well known English gun makers used Boehler steel. If one gets chance to see Dissembled H&H Royal ejector then one can see Boehler Steel Indentations on the under side.

Yes Boehler is famous and a lot of makers use it but it comes in a lot of grades so Boehler steel is a very vague term and if they all use same grade so what its just raw material the leather used in a Delhi or Ludhiana Berluti or a John Lobb shoe can be bought for a less than 10000X the price of the shoe so I don’t see this as a valid point

b] The same applies for the bolt and receiver.Interestingly none of the grand English gun houses made their own bolt actions. The were imported from specialist manufacturers in continent at Liege and Herstaal. Interestingly even today the most premium mauser bolt action manufacturer is Duomolin of Herstaal.

We are talking of Doubles here aren’t we?

c] most barrels today are made on hammer forging machines made by STEYR of Austria. IFB also uses the same machines for our 315 and 30-06. Discerning buyers specifically order a hook cut barrel which is time consuming and expensive. The advantage of hook cut over hammer forged is that the rifle does not walk from shot to shot even after heating up after repetitive shots.

Most London gun maker make their own barrels and have barrels makers which are some of the best in the world and regulating doubles is not a child’s play

d] the next factor is how close the machining tolerances are.

I don’t understand you mean steel tolerance? If you mean machining then as you probably know London Best are mainly handmade.

e] high quality heat treatment of metal parts determines the longevity of the weapon.

Yes definitely look under a microscope how a good quality heat treatment looks like and compare a German double to a English double you would know why you are paying the premium

f] rifle designs of hunting rifles have become fairly standard in last 100 years.Any new so called design is just a copy cat with cosmetic changes as close scrutiny would reveal.

How is this a valid argument? Major London gunmakers hold most of the patents when it comes to doubles ,ejectors,Thrid rising Bite, Purdey under bite, s sidelock, A&D Boxlock , droplock etc. so how does that maker german doubles better?

g] the best stocks are synthetic stocks. All serious competition rifles in international competitions come with synthetic stocks.

I don’t even know how to respond to this, I thought it was a good piece of figured walnut. I would love to see a double with synthetic stock: D

NOW THE FOLLOWING FOOD FOR THOUGHT:-

STATEMENT A: A modern day Perazzi shotgun would shoot better, more accurately, more consistently, more reliably and would outlast any H&H or Purdey ever made.

If Trucks can carry more load than Rolls Royce does it make it better? If you put H&H sporting to the test with Perazzi its will be head to head and can you make Perazzi SXS point and handle like Purdey,H&H?

A cheap laminated print would outlast a genuine Rembrandt, more accurately, more consistently, more reliably and would outlast

STATEMENT B: Those of you who follow African hunting threads would know that most successful professional hunting rifle in Africa in last hundred years is BRNO model 602. (It is sad that original BRNO factory stopped in 1987-88)

I do follow the threads you mention. If you would look closer most PH’s can’t afford a double forget a best grade London double! So it has to be BRNO.

STATEMENT C: A fancy name means a fancy rifle and not necessarily the best rifle.

They are not fancy names out of air they have carved their names after hard work of more than 100 years.

STATEMENT D: Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

I couldn’t agree more.

[eljefe]

Discerning buyers specifically order a hook cut barrel which is time consuming and expensive. The advantage of hook cut over hammer forged is that the rifle does not walk from shot to shot even after heating up after repetitive shots.

Why?
In effect, you with a hook cut barrel and 'Maruti hard top makers' special fibreglass stock
and,
another shooter with the hammer forged Lothar walther barrel, sleeved action, bedded and stabilised railgun
Guess who's the winner...
How can you state with such blithe insouciance, that the modality of cutting the rifling is THE reason for its accuracy?
Another cut and paste job , ( yup, we in IFG, have been accused in the dim and distant past, of being 'cut and paste artists' -by a puissant peddler of prophylactic ) or have you actually used both types of barrels,to quote with such finality?
The Physics of heat erosion, gasflow modalities and metallurgy are beyond the scope of this platform, but if ONLY 1 criteria dictated accuracy, wouldnt Newton be passe? All one had to do was screw on a hook cut barrel to IOF 30-06 type action,and voila?
I had a 24 inch one inch bull barrel, button cut by Lilja on an F class rifle. 10 sighters and 20 recording at 900m-in about 12 min. It actually grouped tighter after the sighters..No, it wasnt hook cut.I am neither discerning or rich.And didnt know Boots Obermeyer and his fine work with cut rifling...
The major advantage hook cut had over other type is each spiral was cut one ten thou at a time, barrel was precisely indexed and next cut made.The twist could be very precise-another factor to aid in accuracy.
Hart, Lilja, Shilen and Douglas turn out stupendously accurate barrels in 416 martensitic SS,with about 10% chrome (and sulphur added to give it decent machining qualities) using the button method.Most target and accuracy seekers today prefer the SS over chrome moly barrels.

Africa a hundred years ago, 1912, 375 H&H Mag made its debut, poor old 450/400J started its decline, Mauser was the king of Bolt actions.Sporters/utility rifles were Mauser or Enfield, Doubles were doubles and I used a Brno 458Mag in 1996. So, never mind the African boards, there's a whole load of BS on some of them...

"What ever you make in life, you have to start with a hole." - Ernie Stallman, Badger Barrels

Before you decide to make a Stradivarius out of fibre glass,on this cheery note, I rest my case

[hvj1]

hks2056, Bespoke and Eljefe,

Thank you for one of the most interesting and educative posts I have read on this forum. Please keep up with your disucssion, its both a pleasure to read your combined style as well as content.
Regards

[hks2056]

Since 1950 when rules for competition shooting were formalized, not a single world championship tournament has been won by any shooter using any H&H, Westley Richards, Purdey firearm or that of any fancy British gun makers. All of them have been won using firearms made in continental Europe. English gun houses produced best guns till First World War as they were pioneers in hunting shooting fire arms for recreation which had a large market in British dominions. Post first world war the continental gun makers of Germany, Belgium , Italy and of other countries started producing better weapons at cheaper rates. Science of metallurgy made rapid strides forward from Second World War onwards. Later on advent of computer controlled machines [CNC] created a level playing field in which dexterity and skill of gun worker became redundant. Now except for wooden butt making, which needs only the proficiency of a carpenter, all other parts of weapon could be produced on CNC machines to a far greater tolerance and precision which would have been possible had it been made by hand. The era of elite gun houses had ended. Most of trap or skeet shooting championships have been won in last two decades by using Perazzi shotgun and to a lesser extent by Berreta and other continental European brands. It is not that the championship shooters cannot afford to buy a contemporary Purdey or H&H because their shooting federations can buy it for them as they are rich e.g. China, Japan, USA etc. They do not use them for the simple reason that they are not the best. To say that Perazzi is a "truck'' is nothing but sheer ignorance. That is why I had mentioned in my earlier post that ignorance is bliss. IFG forum would have been a very boring portal had it not been for few ignorant members who take pride in broadcasting their ignorance to one and all. I fail to understand the irrational obsession with fancy names. It is a fact that everybody in this world is not very smart and knowledgeable. There are well informed intelligent people, yuppies, fools, ignorant, partly ignorant and cognoscenti coexisting in this world. If everybody in this world was intelligent, knowledgeable and smart then nobody would have ever made a loss in stock market because for every gain or profit made by a person there is some ignorant investor who has made the corresponding amount of loss. The wheels of commerce in this world are oiled by the sweat and blood of the ignorants, fools, and oblivious. The so called fancy gun houses of the yore know this reality. So they price their weapons exorbitantly because they know that only a fool or ignorant or yuppie with money to burn would walk in to their showroom to buy their firearm. On the other hand cognoscenti would quietly buy a Perazzi or Beretta.

[eljefe]

Going by your statements, you must be:
owning a Perrazi or a Beretta
Used a brno 602 in Africa
Tested and compared a hook cut Vs a button cut barrel
Know a 'carpenter' who can resin inject a Walnut stock

We were talking here about the record British doubles have as dangerous game rifles,operative word(s) were double rifles.
Nope , they were neither CNC'd or had Fibre glass stocks from Maruti hard top makers or 'Carpenter' made wooden stock
I wonder if a Purdey stock maker would agree to make your furniture or window frames at 70 GBP an hour

AND, the ballsitics, done with ordinary tables, no PC or software, was years ahead of its time. No, they did not have hook cut barrels either. But when push came to shove they dropped all the dangerous game with unerring efficiency and dependability.They were NOT made to shoot trap , skeet or Bench rest. A 6.5x284 or 6mmBR would not be used for DG, just as the 9.3x74 will never be used in BR events.
Yup, beretta and perazzi have won champioships, no denying, but this thread was about double rifles, until you jumped in with fibre glass and carpenters and how IFG has such boringly ignorant members...
So, are you a
a.A cut and paste artist
b.here for entertainment value?
What guns do you own, O enlightened one? do illuminate our mundane lives

[Bespoke]

Since 1950 when rules for competition shooting were formalized, not a single world championship tournament has been won by any shooter using any H&H, Westley Richards, Purdey firearm or that of any fancy British gun makers. All of them have been won using firearms made in continental Europe.

The firm you mention have specialized in high grade sidelock and no sidelock will take beating like a boxlock can for obvious reasons and most of the shooters cannot afford to shoot a $100k gun. These firms manufacture high grade "GAME GUNS" not "COMPETITION GUNS".

English gun houses produced best guns till First World War as they were pioneers in hunting shooting fire arms for recreation which had a large market in British dominions. Post first world war the continental gun makers of Germany, Belgium , Italy and of other countries started producing better weapons at cheaper rates.

Please check your facts the best guns manufactured between first and Second World War command the highest prices in double guns. Germans,Belgians,Italians and Spanish make guns ranging from workhorses to best guns but London gunmakers are still the flag bearers.

Science of metallurgy made rapid strides forward from Second World War onwards. Later on advent of computer controlled machines [CNC] created a level playing field in which dexterity and skill of gun worker became redundant. Now except for wooden butt making, which needs only the proficiency of a carpenter, all other parts of weapon could be produced on CNC machines to a far greater tolerance and precision which would have been possible had it been made by hand.

I think me and eljefe has already answered this issue in earlier posts.

The era of elite gun houses had ended. Most of trap or skeet shooting championships have been won in last two decades by using Perazzi shotgun and to a lesser extent by Berreta and other continental European brands. It is not that the championship shooters cannot afford to buy a contemporary Purdey or H&H because their shooting federations can buy it for them as they are rich e.g. China, Japan, USA etc. They do not use them for the simple reason that they are not the best. To say that Perazzi is a "truck'' is nothing but sheer ignorance.

The era of elite gun houses have ended try ordering any gun from Perazzi and from a best london makers and compare the waiting period. I have mentioned earlier in post they specalize in "Game Guns" and if you want to come on the competition side Holland and Holland Sporting or a Purdey sporter will give any competition gun run for money any day.

That is why I had mentioned in my earlier post that ignorance is bliss. IFG forum would have been a very boring portal had it not been for few ignorant members who take pride in broadcasting their ignorance to one and all. I fail to understand the irrational obsession with fancy names. It is a fact that everybody in this world is not very smart and knowledgeable. There are well informed intelligent people, yuppies, fools, ignorant, partly ignorant and cognoscenti coexisting in this world. If everybody in this world was intelligent, knowledgeable and smart then nobody would have ever made a loss in stock market because for every gain or profit made by a person there is some ignorant investor who has made the corresponding amount of loss. The wheels of commerce in this world are oiled by the sweat and blood of the ignorants, fools, and oblivious. The so called fancy gun houses of the yore know this reality. So they price their weapons exorbitantly because they know that only a fool or ignorant or yuppie with money to burn would walk in to their showroom to buy their firearm. On the other hand cognoscenti would quietly buy a Perazzi or Beretta.

The best London guns are not for everyone and people who spend hundreds of thousands on these guns are not fools or ignorant investors in fact just the opposite otherwise they wouldn’t be in the position to buy them and these companies would have perished long ago and these guns are a very good investment .

[TwoRivers]

With lines, looks, and (wood)figure like that, does she even have to dance and sing? Lovely find.

[rover12]

A Beauty any which way u look at it... While we wait for IHP to start taking orders for AR's again...

[TwoRivers]

hks2056: Boehler is an Austrian steelmaker, not German.

[Nitro Express]

Hks2056,

I beg to differ there Heym are a mediocre gunmakers .Plain soild working guns not even comparable to likes of H&W,Purdey’s,H&H,Westley Richards etc.

I totally agree with Bespoke.How can someone compare H&H,Purdey and WR with Heym?
Nitro Express.

[shooter]

Stating the obvious:

all things right from a pen, to a watch to an aeroplane have a function. can vary from a 5 rs desi pen to a £5000 pen similarly the watches an indian made digital to a patek phillip.

One can argue till kingdom come about both showing time so whats the difference.

Similarly gun can be a tool , an investment, a piece of art or a piece of history.

Like all tools it has a purpose either to be a work horse or to win a competition etc etc. Even saying winning a competition is a vague term as a gun which can win at skeet wont win at trap etc etc.

Similarly for rifles there are many competitions.

A game rifle, double or bolt action cant be compared to a competition or a tactical gun.
Similarly a performance expected of a rifle used for hunting is different than that used for benchrest shooting.

Even hunting is a vague term. I have used rusted .243 that has never been cleaned in 10 years on a farm for pest control.
I was also fortunate enough to use a custom rifle with iron sights used for 1200 yards competition ; looked ugly as hell but did what it was supposed to do.

Similarly a work of art cant and shouldnt be compared to a workhorse.

One doesnt get to top of ones trade by making substandard guns.

And if the london guns have a snob valus, so be it doesnt everything?

see the sales of mercs and bmw's in india they are good cars but many other cars give similar performances and cheaper but why does everyone want to own a bmw?

manoj bajpai may be a better actor than akshay kumar but still wont get as many fans as akshay.

ITs the way of the world.

I know as far as hunting goes accuracy (compared to competition) isnt that important neither are looks but if i had the money i would still buy a london gun, it is a work of art, plus a good product plus history plus snob value plus reliable.

So why not?

If that makes me ignorant about guns then so be it.