Seven-year-old given gun license in Britain

[airgun_novice]

Just when I thought Her Majesty's England was turning senile after reading couple of posts on IFG about the TV anchor who was pulled up for brandishing a knife at intruders and the soldier who faces 5 yr for depositing a shotgun with cartridges with the local cops, I came across this. Considering the ages of kids under consideration, could not but place it under Humor in light of treatment by UK to responsible adults. Mods, lease redirect to appropriate section if need be.

===================================================================
http://www.samachar.com/Sevenyearold-gi ... fjgad.html

Seven-year-old given gun license in Britain

LONDON: A seven-year-old child has been issued a shotgun licence in Britain, a media report said.

Citing figures released under the Freedom of Information Act, The Sun reported that 13 children under the age of 10 were granted certificates between 2008 and 2010.

The data was obtained from 51 forces in the country. A total of 7,071 licences were awarded to people under 18.

The seven-year-old was given the licence by Gloucestershire police, while West Mercia police approved one for an eight-year-old.

The eight-year-old was given a licence for clay pigeon shooting while being supervised by his dad, police said.

Police chiefs have now asked for the "absolute minimum age" for shooting with firearms to be 10.

[dr.jayakumar]

they seem to grow faster?

[nagarifle]

10 is about right age

[Vikram]

I see nothing wrong with a shotgun certificate issued in this case. The condition of the certificate is specific, to use the shotgun for clay shooting under the supervision of his father.That means that the boy cannot access the or use it without the presence of his father. I appreciate the commonsense used by the licensing department.

Best-
Vikram

[Priyan]

It's OK as long as they are taught about firearms the right way. Anyways its a certificate to shoot under supervision of adults. BTW kids older than 10 are allowed to hunt without permit (For both hunting and firearm) in USA under adult supervision.

[airgun_novice]

The news specifically mention that 8-yr old would shoot under Dad's supervision. Nothing such about 7-yr old who got a shotgun license. But let us "assume" it is so for the 7-yr old and the other < 18 yr old kids. Coming back to 8-yr old - question is - Does the Dad automatically qualify for a license? Or is it OK for the non-licensed Dad to supervise the licensed 8-yr old ? Also note that the item is specific about clay-shooting only for this case, while no such mention is made for other cases. Either all the kids were issued shotgun licenses for sport (clay pigeon shoot) or at least a few were issued for non-sport, which would then contradict directly UK's Gun Control attempts. Anyway, the reporting has fallen short of established norms in its attempt to convey clear information.

Since I have never used a shotgun, hope IFGian who has used one will clarify - Does a shotgun deliver a recoil ? If so, can a 7-yr old handle the recoil while maintaining his barrel direction/ alignment steadily ?

[xl_target]

Seven-year-old given gun license in Britain

....and.... there is something that you find troubling about that?
With parental supervision, what is the problem? My daughter fired her first real firearm, a Ruger Standard model in .22, at the age of 5. No permits were required, the sky didn't fall and minions of the devil did not seize control of the night. What business is it of anyone's (especially the government) when and how I teach my kid the lessons of life?

You might not agree with me but there is no such thing as "good gun control" or "good gun regulations". When you start saying, "this person should not have a gun" and then another special interest groups comes along and says "these people should not have guns"; where does it end? Pretty soon only the "special people" have guns. The excuse used for making new gun laws is always crime prevention. This is a load of crap. As prohibition and multiple bans (of various objects) after that have shown us; if a criminal wants to get a weapon, no law is gong to stop him.

You want to reduce crime? Make the penalties harsh and enforce them rigorously. Taking away the rights of law-abiding citizens does nothing but make them easier targets. Fighting for one particular gun law while condoning another is hypocritical. Gun laws ONLY AFFECT law-abiding citizens. Fight them all.

[Priyan]

Does a shotgun deliver a recoil ? If so, can a 7-yr old handle the recoil while maintaining his barrel direction/ alignment steadily ?

Yeah, a shotgun has low to heavy recoil depending on the shell it uses. The most common 12 gauge has a moderate recoil which almost all the 7 year old won't be able to handle (Unless they are the son of hulk ) Maybe some of them would be able to handle the recoil of 28 gauge if they are buff but I'm not sure about the trigger pull.

EDIT: You may want to take a look at this thread http://shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4119

[airgun_novice]

Dear xl_target,

A bit too early in the USA ???

xl_target -> there is something that you find troubling about that?
Nopes. Just strange/ funny/ hypocritical (esp when adults are given a big No-No by the Tommies)

xl_target -> You might not agree with me but there is no such thing as "good gun control"...
Au contraire - I agree with you. No one, (definitely not I/ me/ myself) is ranting here about "This person should not have a gun..." I pointed out the seemingly double/ loose standards in Her Majesty's Dominion. Ironically, India runs a franchise of the English Law.

My heartiest congratulations to your daughter for learning the "lessons of life" at the age of 5 from her Dad. Now,if you have fired a shotgun, could you please enlighten me on my questions asked - as I have humbly confessed I never have and hence lack the experience about this aspect of the lessons of life?

-- Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:49 am --

Does a shotgun deliver a recoil ? If so, can a 7-yr old handle the recoil while maintaining his barrel direction/ alignment steadily ?

Yeah, a shotgun has low to heavy recoil depending on the shell it uses. The most common 12 gauge has a moderate recoil which almost all the 7 year old won't be able to handle (Unless they are the son of hulk ) Maybe some of them would be able to handle the recoil of 28 gauge if they are buff but I'm not sure about the trigger pull.

Thank you Priyan for clearing my doubts.

[Vikram]

Airgun Novice,

There is nothing inexplicable or double standards in the UK licenses issues. The licensing authorities are not fools, at least most of the times. They quite thoroughly check and issue licenses only after the applications tick all the boxes.If there are condition on the shotgun certificate, it has to be used exactly under those conditions. You asked whether the dad automatically gets a license. Not really.One of the conditions is to have a safe and secured storage facility which is a steel cabinet fixed to a wall.A boy is hardly expected to provide for all these. The father is the facilitator and it is his responsibility that the firearms licensing rules are observed. Most likely the father has a license and wanted his son to shoot his own gun,which is a small .410 bore or 28 bore.There is nothing strange here but something commonsensical. The boy gets to access and use it only under the supervision of his father. I don't see what is strange or unusual about it.

Best-
Vikram

[nagarifle]

gents UK arms act can be found upon google, and you will see that its very simple to read. and it means what it says , without leaving room for misunderstanding along side the fireamrs act there is the policy guide lines which is in black and white and can be read without a law degree. thus it is made simple for the brits bobby to understand and comply with.

lets us not forget that there are shotguns apart from the 12 bore ie 410 24 etc which are light on the kick back

[xl_target]

Airgun Novice,
I'm sorry you took my post as a personal attack on you. That was not my intention. Though on re-reading my post, I can see how it could be construed as such. When I said "you", I did not mean you personally. I was generalizing.

Yes, shotguns like all firearms, do kick. However, anyone can be taught to deal with it. When I used to shoot trap, the 10 year old son of one of my team members would join us once in a while. He was quite adept at handling his youth size 870 pump in 12 gauge. For someone younger or more recoil sensitive, as Naga pointed out, there are 20 ga, 410 ga, etc which deliver significantly less recoil. Keep in mind that trap loads are often loaded down to levels less than field loads which makes the recoil softer and thus easier to handle for someone of smaller stature.

When taught proper techniques, anyone can be taught to handle recoil whether it is a shotgun, rifle or handgun.

[airgun_novice]

Thanks Vikram, Naga, xl_target for additional info on the shotgun. As y'all put it, I suppose even a 7-yr old can handle the shotgun without any harm whatsoever. I stand corrected. The reason for the query was my pathetic exposure or lack thereof of firearms, especially shotgun.

xl_target, I see your point; no offence taken from my side - we are all in the same boat and traveling in the same direction to the same destination. It's just that we are seated differently and possess varying levels of skills. So hopefully, you reciprocate the feeling. Come to think of it, it's time we Indians are exposed to the joys of shotgun shooting rather than to the cotton-topped shotguns of Bank/ ATM guards or those of the 'dakus' of Hindi movies. What say ?

[xl_target]

Airgun novice, please don't feel that anyone here considers you stupid. There is no such thing as a stupid question either, at least where firearms are concerned.
If one is lacking exposure to firearms and one only had the popular media as a guide, one could come away with all kinds of misconceptions. Firearms are inanimate objects, mere tools, nothing else. Like all tools, they can be mishandled, whether through a lack of instruction or through incorrect instruction.

When taking some first time shooters to the range, some time ago, I was taken aback when the female of the duo said that she was afraid to be in the same room as a firearm. When I inquired why, she informed me that firearms are dangerous. "Well, yes they are" I said "but only when mishandled". I then brought a hammer into the room and set it on the table in front of her. I asked her if she was afraid that the hammer would jump off the table and attack her on its own? She gave me a weird look and said "no, of course not". I then disassembled a handgun for her and showed her the various safety devices and explained how it was impossible for it to go off unless the trigger was pulled back all the way. Once she understood how it worked, I reassembled the handgun and put it on the table in front of her and asked her if she felt it would just start shooting on its own. She smiled and agreed with me that it would not.

Another time, I had a non-shooting friend stop over after I had just returned from the range. I was at the kitchen table cleaning one of my handguns. I could tell from the nervous glances that he was uncomfortable. So I removed the slide and barrel assembly and set it aside. I then continued to clean the frame but I could still see that he was still uncomfortable. When asked what was bothering him, he said that I had pointed the gun at him. I was a little flabbergasted and sure enough the front of the frame was pointed in his general direction. Now ,any one with even a smidgen of mechanical knowledge knows (or so I though) that it is impossible for any kind of chemical reaction to propel a projectile out of the bare frame of a handgun. It turns out that he has never been in close proximity with a handgun and considered that as "all a handgun is good for is to kill people with", any part of the handgun is dangerous. After I went through a similar explanation with him, he relaxed.

On many gun forums you will hear; "guns don't kill people, people do". To any one familiar with firearms in general, this makes perfect sense. However, to someone who has not been exposed to firearms, this is about as clear as mud and they can't understand why gun people trot out this "mantra" all the time. With the popular media spouting nonsensical phrases like " if you have a gun in the home, you are x times more likely to be killed by it", it is no wonder that people are afraid of an inanimate object, a mere piece of metal. Its like telling a chef that "if you have a Spatula in your house you are x times more likely to get fried in boiling oil".

So what has the above long-winded post go to do with you? I'm just saying that we here in this forum are here to answer any questions that you or anyone else might have about firearms. Anything we can do to put your mind at rest about different types of firearms, we would be glad to do. There are some knowledgeable people in this forum who would be glad to answer firearm related questions. Don't be offended if someone here seems to be a bit huffy when trying to dispel some popular bits of firearms myth, it is really not directed at you personally but rather at the source of the myth (like the newspaper in this case).

If you are really interested in getting familiar with firearms, I would advise you to pay attention to M24's sig. Anytime anyone is going to be handling firearms, they must know those rules backwards and forwards and if possible, be able to recite them in their sleep.
Here they are:

Jeff Cooper advocated four basic rules of gun safety:
1) All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3) Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.
4) Identify your target, and what is behind it.

[airgun_novice]

Good piece xl_target. Well those safety rules were ingrained into me at safety courses that I took, albeit for the AG/AP. Yup the reporting was indeed wanting in details, as I mentioned. I was not clear on recoil aspects of shotgun - especially wrt small kids with less musculature and smaller arm-length. Thanks to IFGians, I now know that there are shells which restrict recoil.