Bluing

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eljefe
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Bluing

Post by eljefe » Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:33 am

Hi All,
since most of us must have tried /had our guns blued and generally wondered about the magical, mystical process called 'BLUING', This post is dedicated to it.
Please add your techniques/comments/ warnings here.
Suggest only home workable formulae be posted, not 'shop' level of expertise.
We shall hopefully start with cold blue, touch ups and move on to rust bluing.Dont really advocate hot bluing , right now, here.

Member usage/ experience with ready made bluing solutions is welcome

Please do remember, the actual finish you may get is TOTALLY dependant on the pre bluing treatment you do... 8)

All mixing of chemicals MUST be done in an open/well ventilated area :cry:

Bluing may invariably involve use of power tools like grinder, buffing wheel etc , so stay safe, use appropriate protection.

Start with a piece of scarp metal to develop your skills, before you decide to do grand dads prized Purdey of H&H. :twisted: :oops:
''It dont mean a thing, if it aint got that zing!''

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Post by badshah0522 » Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:56 am

Hi i have used readymade bluing liquid -PermaBlue,many times for touch ups & its performance was acceptable.
Firstly i cleaned the portion with Steel wool #00,then with alcohol.after that i washed the portion with chilled water ,Then applied the Liquid with a cotton cloth(where touchup was required),washed it again after sum time with cold water again applied the second coat.after 1-2 mins cleaned it with wet cloth & applied sum gun oil over the polished portion.The results were 90%.Did not matched exactly with the orignal blueing.

I have also polished my IOF.22 with Perma aluminium Blueng Liquid,(Through Same procedure)The result was not very good becouse of Matt Finish of the Revolver.
eljefe";p="9531 wrote: Hi All,
since most of us must have tried /had our guns blued and generally wondered about the magical, mystical process called 'BLUING', This post is dedicated to it.

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Re: Bluing

Post by Mark » Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:45 pm

Look for a thread in the knives forum in the next day or 2, I'm in the process of rust bluing a knife blade and have been taking pics of the process.

I hope I haven't jinxed it by talking about it first!
"What if he had no knife? In that case he would not be a good bushman so there is no need to consider the possibility." H.A. Lindsay, 1947

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Re: Bluing

Post by cottage cheese » Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:33 pm

Mark";p="9652 wrote:Look for a thread in the knives forum in the next day or 2, I'm in the process of rust bluing a knife blade and have been taking pics of the process.

I hope I haven't jinxed it by talking about it first!
Hi Mark, I primarily do rust bluing and phosphate. I use the Swiss WaffenFabrik Bern 1876 Formula for my 7-10 day blue process... the results are a marvellous lustrous velvety matt finish. Only problem is the process will seriously dull the edge of your knife and any fade fine markings. That being said, the finish is very durable and will not require reapplication for quite a long time thus having not to erase any fine markings or contours, you'll probably have a fine looking knife. There are many variations of the rust blue formula and I've experimented with quite a few. I find the Swiss one the most satisfying.
I don't do salt bluing presently because of the hassle of getting hold of largish quantities of potentially dangerous salts(You should see the face of the chemist when I mention quantities in kgs!) and the requirement of a dedicated rig for a respectable successful bluing process. Hope your process is going good.

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Re: Bluing

Post by jonahpach » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:20 pm

Some of the products available for blueing are mostly out of reach for us 'desi' folks. Phosphating, cold blueing, whatever.
I had this problem some years ago and contacted the good people at finishing.com and they gave me a very workable formula involving distilled water, manganese powder, phophate and some fine steel wool. Have tried this process and eureka it works! Much better than the acid rust blueing that I have been using.

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Post by eljefe » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:24 pm

So post it here Jonah...
''It dont mean a thing, if it aint got that zing!''

"...Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away..."

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Re: Bluing

Post by jonahpach » Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:59 am

Hokhay here goes.. WARNING DO NOT TRY THIS IN THE KITCHEN


ZINC PHOSPHATE PARKERIZING

1000 ml distilled water
30 ml 89% phosphoric acid.
14 g Manganese dioxide (Mn02)
5 g fine iron filings(or steel wool).

Phosphoric acid can be bought as a primer for bare metal. It is sold under the names Ospho, Metal Prep, and Ph-ospho-ric and is a greenish liquid. Take 4 pennies, dated 1990 or later and drill small holes in them. Heat up 8 oz. of the phosphoric acid in a microwaveable beaker or cup. Drop the zinc disks (pennies) into the hot phosphoric acid. The pennies will start fizzing and leave them in for about 5 minutes. Remove the pennies from the acid. SLOWLY transfer the liquid acid solution to a stainless steel container already containing 24 ozs of distilled water, and heat the solution up close to 190 degrees fahrenheit. Add whatever steel object you want to parkerize and wait 10 – 20 minutes, depending on the type of coating you are after. Experiment for different results.

NOTE: ALWAYS add acid to water, not water to acid, in order to prevent serious injury!

INSTRUCTIONS FOR "HOME-BREW" PARKERIZING:
You need a number of things to do a "home-brew" "Parker-job", but only 4 ingredients.
1. Phosphoric Acid (the active ingredient in Naval Jelly) usually procured at a chemical supply house.
2. Powdered Manganese Dioxide (a very dense and heavy dark gray to black powder) also available at any chemical supply house.
3. Distilled water (I've used tap water, but the distilled stuff gives more consistent results).
4. A biscuit of steel wool (don't use soap pads or Brillo pads!)
I used to do this on the kitchen stove (I wasn't married in those days) in a one gallon Pyrex beaker (these little beasts are expensive, so be careful with them). Metal pots don't work as well (if at all) I understand, but then I never used anything else but Pyrex.
Proceed as follows:
1. Use one whiskey jigger (yeah, this is really scientific, right?) of phosphoric acid added to the water. Remember your high school chemistry, ALWAYS add the acid to the water, and it is best done by pouring it down a glass rod!
2. Use one whiskey jigger of the (powdered) Manganese Dioxide in the solution.
3. Bring the solution to an extremely slooowwww rolling boil .
4. Now add your biscuit of steel wool.
I used wooden sticks placed across the top of the beaker and suspended the parts in the solution using steel or iron "machinist's wire or some such. DON'T use painted coat hangers or any wire with grease on it! You can usually get this stuff from a machine shop or from Brownell's.
The parts should be totally immersed in the solution, being careful that anywhere the wire touches the part won't show on the finished part (usually easy to do &endash; like in the firing pin hole of a bolt). The part(s) to be Parkerized should be totally "de-greased" and sand or bead blasted prior to finishing (depending on the texture you desire on the finished part). Once you have bead blasted the part, you should handle the part with gloves (never greasy hands) and store them wrapped in clean paper towels awaiting the Parker Bath. Any grease on the parts or wire will cause what can only be politely called a variation in color (the parts come out streaked and spotted like a "paint horse").
I usually let the part remain in the solution for a total of 20 minutes (less MAY work, but I was told 20 minutes so that's what I used and it worked marvelously). When you withdraw the part, immediately rinse it in hot running water to get the solution off of it. Use extremely hot water, and the part will dry itself. Let it dry (and get cool enough to touch) on some clean paper towels, spray on some lubricant and viola’ you are done!
Rumor control said that if you immersed the freshly rinsed and still hot part in Cosmoline, it would give the sometimes sought after "gray-green" tint to it. I have never tried it.
The original formula called for iron filings vs. steel wool, but since I didn't have any floating around, and didn't want to file on the cast iron stove, I found that the steel wool worked just fine. What you get is a chemical reaction that causes an iron phosphate to form on the metal (steel phosphate I suppose, using steel wool). I have found that the resultant finish is just as durable as the Arsenal finishes and has exactly the same appearance! &endash; an attractive dark gray, almost black. Some say that adding more manganese dioxide causes a darker finish, but I've never tried it, as I was happy with what I got!
We often used this technique when finishing .45s built on early Essex frames that needed a lot of fitting, thus often requiring the removal of offending metal. I used to checker the front straps (also violating the finish in a rather spectacular fashion) and the resultant finish worked great and showed little or no wear even with extensive use &endash; much like the official GI finish. I'm still using a wadcutter gun I performed the magic on back in the ‘70s and it still looks new.
A couple of cautions:
1. Always be careful of any sort of acid, even such an innocuous acid as phosphoric. I certainly would never deliberately inhale the fumes (although there is no great odor to the process that I could tell, but then I smoke cigars). I started doing this back in the early to mid ‘70s and still have no "twitch" that I can directly attribute to Parkerizing on the kitchen stove. Just use common sense, WEAR GLOVES AND EYE PROTECTION ANYTIME YOU ARE PLAYING AROUND WITH BOILING SOLUTIONS (with or without acids being involved).
2. Be very careful not to cause any splashes with the boiling solution (of course the same can be said of boiling corn).
3. Prepare your area and your parts before hand, don't try to do this on the spur of the moment.
4. Once you have allowed the solution to cool, you are DONE! Re-heating it don't cut it, It simply doesn't work (I've tried it on several occasions). Have everything that you want to Parkerize ready to go when you fire up the solution. You can keep Parkerizing as long as the solution is hot, but allowing it to get cold kills it &endash; you've gotta’ brew up a new solution and start from scratch.
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Post by dev » Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:40 am

Wonderful post Jonah just scares me to think of what you were up to in your college years. ;-).

I have been content with cold blueing for my Marlin but the trick is not to always follow the instructions on the pack.


Regards,

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Re: Bluing

Post by Pran » Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:00 pm

Mark";p="9652 wrote:Look for a thread in the knives forum in the next day or 2, I'm in the process of rust bluing a knife blade and have been taking pics of the process.

I hope I haven't jinxed it by talking about it first!
Would love to see some pics if you're through with it by now.

Pran
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Re: Bluing

Post by jonahpach » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:20 pm

Hello Dev.. Nothing much in my college years actually Just a wee bit of hunting chicks with a different kind of gun ;-)
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Re: Bluing

Post by cottage cheese » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:40 pm

jonahpach";p="12822 wrote:Hokhay here goes.. WARNING DO NOT TRY THIS IN THE KITCHEN


ZINC PHOSPHATE PARKERIZING

1000 ml distilled water
30 ml 89% phosphoric acid.
14 g Manganese dioxide (Mn02)
5 g fine iron filings(or steel wool).

Phosphoric acid can be bought as a primer for bare metal. It is sold under the names Ospho, Metal Prep, and Ph-ospho-ric and is a greenish liquid. Take 4 pennies, dated 1990 or later and drill small holes in them. Heat up 8 oz. of the phosphoric acid in a microwaveable beaker or cup. Drop the zinc disks (pennies) into the hot phosphoric acid. The pennies will start fizzing and leave them in for about 5 minutes. Remove the pennies from the acid. SLOWLY transfer the liquid acid solution to a stainless steel container already containing 24 ozs of distilled water, and heat the solution up close to 190 degrees fahrenheit. Add whatever steel object you want to parkerize and wait 10 – 20 minutes, depending on the type of coating you are after. Experiment for different results.

NOTE: ALWAYS add acid to water, not water to acid, in order to prevent serious injury!

INSTRUCTIONS FOR "HOME-BREW" PARKERIZING:
You need a number of things to do a "home-brew" "Parker-job", but only 4 ingredients.
1. Phosphoric Acid (the active ingredient in Naval Jelly) usually procured at a chemical supply house.
2. Powdered Manganese Dioxide (a very dense and heavy dark gray to black powder) also available at any chemical supply house.
3. Distilled water (I've used tap water, but the distilled stuff gives more consistent results).
4. A biscuit of steel wool (don't use soap pads or Brillo pads!)
I used to do this on the kitchen stove (I wasn't married in those days) in a one gallon Pyrex beaker (these little beasts are expensive, so be careful with them). Metal pots don't work as well (if at all) I understand, but then I never used anything else but Pyrex.
Proceed as follows:
1. Use one whiskey jigger (yeah, this is really scientific, right?) of phosphoric acid added to the water. Remember your high school chemistry, ALWAYS add the acid to the water, and it is best done by pouring it down a glass rod!
2. Use one whiskey jigger of the (powdered) Manganese Dioxide in the solution.
3. Bring the solution to an extremely slooowwww rolling boil .
4. Now add your biscuit of steel wool.
I used wooden sticks placed across the top of the beaker and suspended the parts in the solution using steel or iron "machinist's wire or some such. DON'T use painted coat hangers or any wire with grease on it! You can usually get this stuff from a machine shop or from Brownell's.
The parts should be totally immersed in the solution, being careful that anywhere the wire touches the part won't show on the finished part (usually easy to do &endash; like in the firing pin hole of a bolt). The part(s) to be Parkerized should be totally "de-greased" and sand or bead blasted prior to finishing (depending on the texture you desire on the finished part). Once you have bead blasted the part, you should handle the part with gloves (never greasy hands) and store them wrapped in clean paper towels awaiting the Parker Bath. Any grease on the parts or wire will cause what can only be politely called a variation in color (the parts come out streaked and spotted like a "paint horse").
I usually let the part remain in the solution for a total of 20 minutes (less MAY work, but I was told 20 minutes so that's what I used and it worked marvelously). When you withdraw the part, immediately rinse it in hot running water to get the solution off of it. Use extremely hot water, and the part will dry itself. Let it dry (and get cool enough to touch) on some clean paper towels, spray on some lubricant and viola’ you are done!
Rumor control said that if you immersed the freshly rinsed and still hot part in Cosmoline, it would give the sometimes sought after "gray-green" tint to it. I have never tried it.
The original formula called for iron filings vs. steel wool, but since I didn't have any floating around, and didn't want to file on the cast iron stove, I found that the steel wool worked just fine. What you get is a chemical reaction that causes an iron phosphate to form on the metal (steel phosphate I suppose, using steel wool). I have found that the resultant finish is just as durable as the Arsenal finishes and has exactly the same appearance! &endash; an attractive dark gray, almost black. Some say that adding more manganese dioxide causes a darker finish, but I've never tried it, as I was happy with what I got!
We often used this technique when finishing .45s built on early Essex frames that needed a lot of fitting, thus often requiring the removal of offending metal. I used to checker the front straps (also violating the finish in a rather spectacular fashion) and the resultant finish worked great and showed little or no wear even with extensive use &endash; much like the official GI finish. I'm still using a wadcutter gun I performed the magic on back in the ‘70s and it still looks new.
A couple of cautions:
1. Always be careful of any sort of acid, even such an innocuous acid as phosphoric. I certainly would never deliberately inhale the fumes (although there is no great odor to the process that I could tell, but then I smoke cigars). I started doing this back in the early to mid ‘70s and still have no "twitch" that I can directly attribute to Parkerizing on the kitchen stove. Just use common sense, WEAR GLOVES AND EYE PROTECTION ANYTIME YOU ARE PLAYING AROUND WITH BOILING SOLUTIONS (with or without acids being involved).
2. Be very careful not to cause any splashes with the boiling solution (of course the same can be said of boiling corn).
3. Prepare your area and your parts before hand, don't try to do this on the spur of the moment.
4. Once you have allowed the solution to cool, you are DONE! Re-heating it don't cut it, It simply doesn't work (I've tried it on several occasions). Have everything that you want to Parkerize ready to go when you fire up the solution. You can keep Parkerizing as long as the solution is hot, but allowing it to get cold kills it &endash; you've gotta’ brew up a new solution and start from scratch.
Hi Jonah, Nice of you to share that. I'm in Shillong so we're quite close by. You describe

both zinc and manganese parkerizing. I perfer the latter as it seems to produce the darkest

of the three types of phosphate-iron, zinc and manganese. I ocassionally do phosphate but

really don't like dealing with the fumes and waste sludge(which I assume is pretty harmful).

Incidentally I just parkerized a friend's old .45 some days back. It was in a pretty bad shape,

severly pitted so the phosphate was principally to give it a degree of surface protection

rather than to impart it with good looks.

Phosphate (apart from the surface preparation) is a quick process which can be sorted out

in less than a hour. Way less than the old 10 day rust blue but there's no way I'm going to

give an ugly greenish black military finish on fine civilian guns. Of course I do really like

phosphate finish - but on guns that are meant to have them. I love that honest well-used

patinated look that develops over time on parkerized military guns.

I use blue because most weapons I refinish are civillian and often the type that demand rich

deep blue...stuff like revolvers, engraved double barrels...etc. Presently I rebluing an old JP

Sauer double barrel and I must say the old carbon steel is taking the blue perfectly. Just

reached the 5th application and ite already a nice deep blue. I plan to stop on the 6th or 7th

application dependhing on my level of satisfaction - I'll post some pics when my friend

returns my camera.

Ok, not to insult the intelligence of the pros on the forum already experienced in such

matters, any newbie attempting phosphate finishing musn't forget the importance of surface

prep... it can't be stressed enough- and no bare hands! The part going into the solution

must be absolutely clean and free of any grease. What I usually do after pickling the part is

to rinse it thoroughly in hot running water. Then I dip it in really hot water pick it out with a

thong let it dry with its own heat then immerse in the phosphate solution. After all the pain

of hours of manual surface prep(In absence of sand blasters- nobody's heard of those

things here) the actual phosphate process is a measly 20 minutes or so... somewhat

anti-climactic if I may add.

I'm planning to try some salt bluing when I have time. I hope to slowly collect enough nitrates

to make a feasable dip. I'll keep you all posted on progress on this front..

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Re: Bluing

Post by jonahpach » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:54 pm

Great going cottage cheese maybe we can meet sometime! Only tried it twice myself though.. After a few experimentations.. Cant get my hands on that cosmoline stuff and used gear grease instead! I worked great on an M-20. Regarding the surface finishing... arnt there any sand blasting units in Shillong? I wish I had one..

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Re: Bluing

Post by cottage cheese » Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:10 pm

jonahpach";p="13196 wrote:Great going cottage cheese maybe we can meet sometime! Only tried it twice myself though.. After a few experimentations.. Cant get my hands on that cosmoline stuff and used gear grease instead! I worked great on an M-20. Regarding the surface finishing... arnt there any sand blasting units in Shillong? I wish I had one..

Jonah
Hey Jonah... sure we can meet some time.

I might add that I'm married and the phosphate doesn't seem to bother her since I do it outside... :)

Funny... how a time saver like a sand blaster is virtually unknown this end of the world... maybe I'll try to build my own... I already have some jury rigged variants on paper but never got down to actually scraping together one.

btw...when did you pick up that yellow card...I've been out of the loop for a while...

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Re: Bluing

Post by jonahpach » Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:30 pm

He he :lol: I seem to attract them like flies.. Read a bit about the sandblasters and have downloaded a few designs.. need some kind of a sparkplug contraption if i remember correctly!
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Post by eljefe » Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:23 pm

Yellow cards, phosphating, sand blasting, pickling-Jonah's been there done that!
Hi guys, good to have some activity on this post...
Keep on doin it.
Best
Axx
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"...Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away..."

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