TEFLON-coating a break barrel springer breech

[airgun_novice]

I was wondering if anyone has tried teflon coating the breech side of a break barrel springer ? First and the foremost, curious if it's feasible and advisable ? If anyone has tried it, is it durable in terms of friction reduction while cocking & loading the pellet ? Does the coating also automatically save/ prolong the life of breech/ barrel seals ? Saw a reference to teflon *seals* in another thread, but could not find if this approach has been dealt with - hence this post.

Also as an extension to the thought above - can one also teflon-coat the barrel and receiver ? Would that act as rust inhibitor, bluing-protector and scratch-guard ?

Kindly post your experience/ advice with my heart-felt "thank you".

[airgun_novice]

Since none on the forum responded, I presume none ever tried it. So I did. Obtained a small 50ml tin of Teflon (2-wheeler engine treatment) from Nulon as suggested by someone (vijaycool, I think) on another thread - emptied it inside the petrol tank of my my old (1990) Bajaj Chetak (2S) and the "stick-over" (guess would be better word than "left-over" ) which was surprisingly more than enough to coat the breech, breech-seal, barrel and receiver was applied with an ear-bud. Then some more was stuck over and was dutifully applied to the wood stock. Could not help inserting a bud coated with material through the muzzle end and gave it a twirl. Did not want to experiment with coating all of barrel insides with Teflon, though that idea is "germ"inating.

Left it around for about 20 minutes under a slow fan and then wiped off with a dry cotton cloth. Shot 30 pellets and did notice increased "smoothness" while shutting the barrel. Or may be that was psychological ? What isn't though is the new sheen acquired by the stock and the metal. Hopefully it stays on and also acts as guard against minor scratches and retains the bluing. Out of the first batch of 10 pellets, two (1st and 4th) went "Phut" and actually strayed from my pellet trap at 10m. Three (though landing inside the trap) went off by quite a margin - not being a crack shot (nor having any vise) can not say for sure if it was because of teflon inserted in the muzzle end or due to my hand's wanderlust. But the pistol seemed to regain its composure subsequently. The gun under consideration is IHP .22 springer air pistol (Olympus).

As a side note, the Chetak seems to have cast aside some of its "rat-tat-tat" and appears to 'glide' more on the road. Better riding experience on the highway at higher speed. Had to do a bit of carb-cleaning and firing adjustment though to take care of what my wife described as the "cholesterol effect".

[essdee1972]

According to ehow.com, you should use WD40 on the barrel, then remove it with a bore snake or cleaning wad, then apply teflon. Nary a word on dieseling.

Did you dissolve the teflon in petrol? (asking as you wrote about emtying the can into the petrol tank). Or used the teflon remaining in the tin after emptying it into the tank? For the barrel I think you would need a bore snake tipped with a cotton bud soaked in teflon.

Let me try with my SDB .22 rifle.

Cheers!

[airgun_novice]

I did not not dissolve in Petrol - one, not sure if teflon dissolves in petrol, two, definitely a case for dieseling or worse. Friction of pellet + Petrol = a definite No-No and three, Why dissolve in anything when you can apply as is ? . But now that you mentioned a cleaning wad and a bore snake - one more Q - will the wad remove all of petrol/ WD40 for sure ? Even if little quantity stays back, then too "Poof". Unless, you leave it under the fan or in open for 2-3 days to let all the petrol evaporate. Methinks even the WD40 is mineral oil based and bound to heat up and smoke on friction. If that's the case, then WD40 is better off on the barrel than inside. What say ? May be it's time for the forum Gurus to share their knowledge ?

Also another Q (this grey matter goes into OD sometimes) - If all of barrel inside is indeed coated with Teflon then will it affect the spin of the pellet that is being shot out ? I mean, obviously some sort of friction is expected to spin the pellet through rifled barrel, right ? I am attributing the two flier "Phuts" to the little bit of teflon at the muzzle end - may be I am wrong. And the last Q - will the teflon actually stay inside or will the friction with the pellet wear and tear if off ? Teflon-coated pans usually come with warning not to use any metal on their surface - wood/ plastic OK. I would rather you wait for the Gurus to respond before going in for WD40/Petrol + Teflon on your SDB. No point in taking unnecessary risks.

I used what was left in the tin - as is. More experimentation as the pistol grows older. BTW, the cotton of the bud seems to have more cohesion for the teflon than for the plastic stick and tends to yank off during application. So I "rolled" the bud than "painted" it across, when I experienced that.

[essdee1972]

Already confirmed from gurus earlier about the inadvisability of WD40 (see thread "lubrication of airgun" or something like that). Petrol would be a stricter NO, in my opinion. I just stated what I saw in ehow.com. They actually recommend putting a wad in one end of the barrel, the FILLING the barrel with WD40, keeping for sometime (I forgot the exact time), then pour it off, keep for sometime, fire around 10 wads, apply teflon, again fire some wads. And voila! The power is increased! Bloody waste of WD40, IMHO!

After applying a little, half-second spray of WD40 on my barrel (this was BEFORE I joined this forum!!), the amount of dieseling which occurred made me think I have a 1776 Tower musket (or something like that) rather than a humble SDB 0.22!! After that, I keep WD40 only for squeaky hinges and suchlike (I am quite a fan of WD40 and duct tape!).

Cheers!

EssDee

[winnie_the_pooh]

Teflon requires high temperature for it to adhere to anything.So basically any teflon is only on the surface and would be easily wiped off.

[airgun_novice]

Teflon requires high temperature for it to adhere to anything.So basically any teflon is only on the surface and would be easily wiped off.

Oh Boy ! Just when I thought I made a difference to the world of springer air rifle/ pistol shooting ... Thanks winne_the_pooh for your point ! How high should the temperature be ? Any idea ? Would a limited heating as could be done at home over boiling water on gas-stove flame be OK ? As per Net information Teflon starts breaking around 300 deg F and at approximately twice that temperature turns toxic.
http://www.ecomall.com/greenshopping/teflon4.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene

BTW, Nulon claimed (and I also experienced) that merely mixing in oil tank would coat the engine innards with Teflon and reduce metal-metal wear & tear as oil circulates through. Of course, the scooter engine running for 20 minutes would indeed be warm. I would say at steady running it ought to be around 80 < Engine-Temp < 100deg C or 200 deg F. The first post in the link below gives the guy's 1000CC bike's engine opening at 28 deg C (82 deg F) summertime -
http://www.gixxer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198892

Indian bikes with 100-150CC engines would be at less temp and Chetak (< 30CC) engine at still less. So I would settle the guess at 40 deg C which is a few degrees more than post-noon time temperature of Mumbai-Thane. Only progressing logically here - no data sheet with me; so guys correct me if wrong.

By the same logic, the teflon "sticky liquid stuff" ought to stick to other materials (including metal of breech) as well, right ? Unless that material is repugnant to Teflon. Teflon would probably not form an over-layer or multi-over-layer coating without heating to the ambient temperature as is visible on pans; but it should nonetheless fill in the intra-material and intra-molecular cracks and spaces. That is the logic behind any lubrication anyway. Just that it may be more cohesive when treated at slightly warmer temperature.

The next time I shall try with wrapping the gun in thick towel warmed by immersing in boiling water before the application (and no fan above). Hopefully, it should not cause the de-bluing and red-rusting without the Teflon sticking over. Or should I better wait till I get my hands on an older air gun in dire need of over-hauling?

[winnie_the_pooh]

airgun_novice,

Dishing out a bit of google gyan

Apparently teflon does not want to stick to anything.Basically you have to make it stick.It seems you require pressure and/or heat or a strong chemical bond for it to stick to a surface.Just putting it in a medium and saying that it will coat something does not do it.All that it does is that it allows companies to sell their products at a premium saying that it contains teflon.

[airgun_novice]

Pooh - err, Poof - there goes my Teflon experiment on springers like Essdee's WD40 one. I gotta rescue that old defunct .22 Chinese springer from a sleepy hamlet and give it one final try. Oh Goddess Google - please churn up a few more teflon-related articles so I could use the remainder of my Teflon !!!

[vijaycool]

Another alternative is you can coat Molykote D10 in the range of 10~15 microns inside compression cylinder and barrel. It will cure over night like paint. The only problem is you need to be very careful as its harmful and costly.

Regards,
Vijay

[airgun_novice]

Thanks Vijay - just wonder if it's really safe. Got this data sheet on Molykote D10 from the Net-
180 deg C can be achieved by Conventional Oven or controlled consistent LPG flame - any other means inside the house without the biwi or window voyeurs getting too jittery ? Not quite comfortable putting the springer for the bake - plus will surely burn the rubber and plastics (seals), unless totally stripped. Plus the FP (CC) is 63 deg C - would not compression chamber be akin to closed cup during firing ? Sorta confused here.

Or may be - I got the procedure all wrong. Please guide on how you proceeded.

=============================================================
Typical Properties

Density = 1.3 grams per cc
Dynamic Viscosity = 27500 Centipoise
Flash Point, Closed Cup = 63 Deg C
Heat Cure = 30 Minutes @ 180 Deg C
Service Temperature High = 340 Deg C
=============================================================

BTW, the springer still has that extra sheen on metal and wood, the leather breech seal still holds and the scooter still "purrs". Or could be because I run a ball of cotton with a drop or two of til (sesame) oil on metal and wood and spray a little bit of silicone spray on the seal after every usage (2-3 times/ week)and a 3-4 drops of til plus Front Fork Oil inside barrel every 500 (box) of pellets. Thank you Vijay, for the Nulon pointer - seems to have worked for me on both the counts.

BTW, think I ought to use Automatic Transmission Fluid instead of Front Fork Oil (I suspect FFO is mineral oil based) ?

[vijaycool]

FP applies before curing. After curing it comes to the service temperature. Airgun never reaches this temp. I heard it cost close to 5k for 1 liter. Neighbourhood offset printer is your best friend . You need to strip all rubber parts and you may need to reblue. Read some where you can air cure for 24 hrs or 8hrs in 60C.

[SUFFIX]

Last 5 years, my R1 I am using the most. Haven't seen any problem in breech area.
My diana 27 having leather Breech seal for last 15 yrs and it is still strong.

Do we really need to think any other alternatives?

[brihacharan]

Hi Guys,

> Very interesting experiments with Teflon et al...........
> I understand that during manufacture the breech & the transfer port end are case hardened to minimize wear.
> The leather seal at the breech is both tough & resilent to cushion the locking - to prevent any leakage of air when the airgun if fired.
> As mentioned earlier by Vijay Teflon requires high heat for it to adhere to the surface it is applied on - around 300*c if I am not mistaken. Hence DIY procedures may not achieve the same results as expected.
> However the insides of the powerplant (the tube) could be Teflon Coated (2 to 3 microns) by a professional who undertake such jobs - there's a unit in Mulund, Mumbai who does it. This enusres the smoothness desired for the synthetic seal mounted piston to function almost friction free to deliver optimum power.
> Always use pellets that fit sungly in the breech and stick to the ones that do. This ensures maximum power utilization + accuracy.
> Most Indian manufactured pellets are not up to the mark - in 2 different aspects:
1. They fit either loosely or sink a couple of thous into the breech
2. The fore end of the pellets are often a tad small in diameter and as such do not touch the riflings (landing) in the barrel
thus failing to take advantage of the 'spin' to support ballistics & aerodynamics during flight.
> These defects affect velocity & accuracy.
> In my considered opinion and experience G.Smith & International Export pellets are far better than the other makes available in the market.
> Master shot used to be good once - now they too fall short in quality - The reson I understand is that - ex employees of Master Shot company have started on their own - they probably don't understand the dynamics that go in the manufacture of pellets - the result - poor quality pellets.
> I have always been getting 5/8" & 7/8" groups at 25ft using G.Smith & International Export pellets in my tuned IHP35 22cal. While other make pellets give groups that vary from 1.5" to 2.25".
> Finally if you own an Indian Make air rifle - get it tuned by a professional (if you have the where-with-all & are capable of it - good for you - enjoy the experience). If the gun give you 600 to 650 fps with 14.5 gr pellets without any vibration, you'll have better accuracy with adequete power to take small game as well up to 25 / 30 yds with a well placed shot.
> Believe me high velocities make good coffee table talk, nothing more - nothing less!
Happy Shooting!!!
Cheers:D
Brihacharan

Cheers
Brihacharan

[airgun_novice]

Dear Brihacharan,
Thank you very much for the information. My IHP .22 springer AP has no problem hitting at 10m (~33-35 ft). Two areas of challenge primarily that exist are the hard trigger and the hard recoil vibration. Though I have a strong forehand, 60 rounds (30 * 2) cause enough pain in the wrist later to remind me that I had been handling the IHP springer AP. The experimentation started because when I purchased it anew, the breech seal came off after < 200 shots and under a month of purchase. So was thinking along lines of reducing friction between the breech and the chamber while closing after cocking. However, I have an old Chinese Springer .22AR languishing in a remote hamlet in Ratnagiri. Planning to rescue it in May (might as well enjoy mangoes, jackfruit and cashews if I have to undertake such a long trip for the springer ) this year. Your Mulund contact will certainly come in handy while revamping it. Kindly PM me the contact details if OK, at your leisure - I live at Vartak Nagar, Thane and can drop by there once I get started on the Chinese springer. If that works out then can give similar treatment to the newer AP as well. Thank you, again, for all the pointers.