Blind Greener Crossbolt (Pics)

[herb]

Greener cross-bolt was an invention of W.W. Greener and many gun makers adopted this locking system. Majority of them have the bolt protruding out of the left fence when the gun is opened. My Charles Boswell has a blind cross-bolt i.e. the cross-bolt does not protrude from the left fence when the gun is opened. I have not seen many guns with blind cross-bolts and don't know why this variation was adopted. Most of the new guns being made now have the standard cross-bolt and not the blind cross-bolt. Please post if anyone has more details.

A standard cross-bolt on one of my guns.


My Charles Boswell with blind cross-bolt.





Herb

[captrakshitsharma]

Beautiful gun my friend any trivia or history associated with it... how long have u had it... is it a heirloom handed down...

-- Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:23 am --

sadly the barrel looks a lil worn.. needs a touch up of cold blue..

[vrohan59]

Beautiful weapon Can you tell us a bit more about it
Regards
Rohan

[kanwar76]

You own a tresure Herb,

Nice looking gun. Please post pic of your gun safe, would love to see how you store your gems

-Inder

[herb]

Glad you folks like the gun.

The first picture (sidelock) is a run of the mill Spanish gun, nothing interesting.

The Charles Boswell was made in 1926. The cost was 35 Guineas as per the makers records. This is a lovely gun by a little known (at least in India) London gun maker. He was a champion pigeon shooter himself.

When I have time I will post more pictures(complete gun, stock, fore-end etc.)

-- Sun Oct 03, 2010 15:58 --

You own a tresure Herb,

Nice looking gun. Please post pic of your gun safe, would love to see how you store your gems

-Inder

Will do.

[winnie_the_pooh]

A good enough excuse to post photos of the old lady.Nice gun

[Bespoke]

Herb,

Thats a very nice example of Boswell Pigeon gun, IMO the look of a lever sticking out of fence everytime you open your gun (believe me you could even be picked on for that sort of thing on a shoot) is not aesthetically pleasing specially on a high grade boxlock like yours and English have always paid attention to the aesthetics that is the reason why your Charles Boswell has hidden Crossbolt.

[herb]

Bespoke,

I agree that the original cross-bolt as designed by W.W.Greener is not aesthetically pleasing , but Greener made some very high grade guns using this mechanism including FH50's & FH70's. Many other British & Continental gun-makers also used this bolting system. Merkel still uses it on their double rifles.

Not sure who first came out with the blind or concealed cross-bolt, it doesn't take away from the looks and also has the advantage of strength. I have not seen many of them.

Some better images (not mine) I got from the internet clearly showing the cross-bolt.

Cross-bolt when open.


When closed (on a high grade greener)

[timmy]

Herb: Indeed, your Boswell is a very interesting and beautiful firearm! Thanks for sharing it!

My understanding of the Greener development of the crossbolt goes like this:

The greatest stress on a break open-type action (single shot, double, or over/under) is at the top of the breach end of the barrels. If you think about this, you will understand that, when this kind of action is stressed, the widest gap between the barrels and the frame is where the action opens at the top of the barrel breaches and the top of the receiver frame. (The smallest gap is the area between the barrels and the frame that is nearest the pivot pin.)

Thinking about this, it should be clear that the strongest place at which a break open action can be locked is the area closest to the top of the barrel breaches and the top of the receiver frame. This is why Greener located a locking lug at this position in the action.

However, there's a downside to the Greener locking system: In British pass style shooting, the hunter normally hunts with several guns and an assistant, working from a blind. For this kind of shooting, the assistant is reloading while the hunter shoots. For this type of shooting, a flat breach is preferred, since the loading process (and especially the unloading process, if the gun has extractors) is easier if there is a flat breach that is unobstructed by a Greener-type lug. So, the weaker traditional underlug system is often preferred for this sort of shooting. (This is also why SxS guns are preferred over O/U guns: O/Us require a more obtuse opening angle, and are less handy to manipulate in a blind.)

There are a number of arrangements for a moving locking lugs. Some use straight sided lug, while others use a tapered lug that will take up normal wear on the bolt and the locking lug. LC Smith, rather than using a sliding lug, used a rotary bolt that looked somewhat like a comma. The "tail" of the comma was tapered and would rotate into the lug on the barrels.

Another arrangement that didn't lock quite so tightly but required no moving parts was the "doll's head." The lug on the end of the barrel, when viewed from the top of the gun, looked like the letter "T", where the stem of the T attached to the barrel breach. The lug fit into a matching T-shaped slot in the receiver. The lug and slot were tapered on the end so that the barrel would rotate smoothly into battery with clearance, yet lock tightly when completely closed.

[Bespoke]

Herb,

Yes crossbolt was developed by Greener and he is also know for his very strong action called "Facile princeps" and considered by some as one of the strongest actions,but I have never seen High grade guns with crossbolts when I say High grade i mean best British guns and I think FH50'S and FH70's were good guns but were never best guns.

The much more famous with top end makers for best guns was

Bissell Rising Bite or Third rising bite designed by Designed by J Rigby and T Bissell are one of the best know locking system but are very hard and expensive to produce,but making a comeback by some,Concealed Third Fastener and Double bite Purdey.

I think Greener bolt gave a sound and strong action but the only downside was that it didn't look too great.I personally would not like to see a greener crossbolt on a high end best gun and nor have i ever seen one with it.

[snIPer]

Beautiful Herb, Mine has that crossbolt too. ive always wondered about it.
/S/

[Sakobav]

Herb

Congrats nice addition to your collection

Cheers

[Eoinsloan]

I own four Boswells (1872, 1888, 1903 & 1929). The Greener type cross bolt is fitted to the 1929 A&D boxlock Pigeon gun which is Nitro proved with 3" Magnum Chambers. The 1903 A&D boxlock game gun Nitro proved also has the Greener type cross bolt. The 1888 Nitro proved hammer game gun has a 'dolls head' extension and top lever opening. The 1872 Black powder only proved hammer game gun has only the Jones under lever action fastening. The matter of fastening can be seen to be a result of (a) Evolution and (b) Fitness for purpose. The two earlier guns both have Damascus barrels incidentally. Each has its place. Greener in his book obviously extols his cross bolt but it is quite unnecessary on the earliest of my guns. As an engineer and former Engineering and Weapons Manager of HM Dockyard Gibraltar the latter O/U six bite Purdeys showed a distinct lack of understanding of the dynamics or maybe a pandering to customers who did not, but wanted the name at any cost.
Eoinsloan
(Cdr Eoin Sloan RN CEng)

[Vikram]

Herb,

I somehow missed this excellent post. Lovely looking gun you have there.


Eoinsloan,

We would love to see the pics of your Bossworth shotguns. Please do share.


Best-
Vikram

[Eoinsloan]

Hi Vikram! I have the photos in my PC but let me look and find out how to post them on the forum and I promise I'll have a go. Incidentally we can get copies of the original sales ledger sheets for about 1882 onwards for Boswells and I can give dates by span of the original Proof Acts as per the proof markings on the pre 1882 guns. Prior to 1882 he was at 6 Chapel Place Edmonton in North London. Edmonton is on the sidelocks and Upper rib. Post 1882 look for 126 The Strand (which is central)on the barrels or rib. In UK one then uses the Cencus data which is able to be accessed on the web so one can find all about the original owners address and family details.
Cheers
eoin s