My search for ultimate dog breed ends!

[Nitro Express]

A pure raw diet comprising of meaty bones and organ meat is ideal for the dog. The dog's digestive system is very akin that of a wolf, and how many of latter have you come across eating cooked food?

I have always kept my dogs on a raw diet. I get my new adoptee next week, and she will be raw fed as well.

I too keep my dogs on a raw diet, but only during winters.

Nitro Express

[Yaj]

While dogs are descended from the wolf and very alike in anatomy and physiology we cannot ignore a few thousand years of adaptation.
Dogs in different parts of the world have adapted to and thrive in a variety of diets which may not fit into the "wolf-prey based diet view".There are breeds which thrive on a predominantly fish based diet, most of the
shepherd dogs/flock guardians in Europe,Central asia and in India are fed mainly a cereal and dairy based diet with little or no meat.These dogs are can grow to huge sizes and are functional in the true sense of the word.Sighthounds in India are fed rotis made of jowar/ bajra/ragi occasionally milk and can work in top form as they have for centuries.Most of the Indian mastiffs i have seen are brought up on a diet based on cereals and dairy(milk/buttermilk)

So while conventional wisdom tells us that dogs should be fed a predominantly meat based diet(And indeed I do so myself) we should not dismiss the other alternatives.

Coming to the the raw meat issue, i too feel meat in raw form is best for the dog but in India the quality of meat( beef) is not very reliable.Old ,diseased animals are slaughtered as we do not raise beef for meat.Raw chicken is not too much of a problem since the dogs digestive system can handle the bacteria et al from unhygienic handling etc.
While wolves in the wild may live with parasites(ecto as well as endo) and still live a reasonably long life you have to remember that our dogs live in close contact with us.We would not want our dogs infested with parasites which can make them sick or even pass them on to us.
Indeed cysticercosis and hydatid cyst disease can even be life threatening.

Sorry for going really OT on your post hvj1
Regards,
Yaj.

[goodboy_mentor]

Sighthounds in India are fed rotis made of jowar/ bajra/ragi occasionally milk and can work in top form as they have for centuries. Most of the Indian mastiffs i have seen are brought up on a diet based on cereals and dairy(milk/buttermilk)

I fully agree, myself have seen adult large, healthy and ferocious dogs on vegetarian diet in countryside fed only rotis and milk/buttermilk/curd only once a day.

While wolves in the wild may live with parasites(ecto as well as endo) and still live a reasonably long life you have to remember that our dogs live in close contact with us.We would not want our dogs infested with parasites which can make them sick or even pass them on to us. Indeed cysticercosis and hydatid cyst disease can even be life threatening.

I agree, faced the same problem with my dog when I fed raw beef. Dog got heavily infected with tapeworms, causing the dog to become extremely weak. The vet advised to give beef or goat meat only after fully cooking in pressure cooker to kill the tapeworm infection. Tapeworm infection can get easily transmitted to humans from dogs.

[MoA]

Yaj: There is more to meat than beef, or more correctly Buffalo in India. I feed mine all kinds, ranging from canned markerel to chicken to deer and wild boar.
Goodboy_mentor: De-worming once every six months does wonders if you're worried.
Here is pic of my nephew with the pup from a couple of years ago..


Hvj: Sorry for the complete hijack...

[Sakobav]

Congrats hvj1

Nitro et al please post pictures of your dogs ..

Best

[Yaj]

Yaj: There is more to meat than beef, or more correctly Buffalo in India. I feed mine all kinds, ranging from canned markerel to chicken to deer and wild boar.
Goodboy_mentor: De-worming once every six months does wonders if you're worried.

Good boy mentor had cautioned hvj1 on the recommended raw beef diet and that was what started this discussion.
Since the pups are going to be in India the meat available here is what matters.
As for wild boar it is commonly a host to tapeworm,whipworm and roundworm. Fish tapeworm(D latum) is also quite common in most varieties of fish.
In India it is legal to slaughter bulls and oxen above 15 years, so "beef" is available and freely, not to mention illegal cow slaughter that takes place.It is not all buffalo.
Not too long back even veal was available though it is not any longer.
Vets in slaughterhouses are routinely bribed to pass diseased animals for slaughter, So parasites and bovine tuberculosis in the slaughtered animals is quite common.
And here deworming is advisable every 3 months and even that is not fool proof.
So bottomline is Goodboy mentor's advice of "pressure cook beef" was pretty accurate in the Indian context.
Regards,
Yaj.

[hvj1]

Thanks Yaj, GBM, Prabath, Nitro, Ngrewal, MoA,
Its been fascinating to read your comments, here are some of my own thoughts and experiences;
1. I was quite surprised , when Col. Kuldeep said the diet of the Boerboel, is a combination of cooked veg. and raw beef. The amount ranges from 1.2 kg of raw meat a day, till such time the dog attains adulthood, then the meat intake is reduced to 500 gms a day along with rest of the stuff. Milk, rice, rotis are also part of the diet.
2. I am a firm believer of cooking the damned meat for at least three hours (chullah behind my house), then serve the soup and grist along with wheat rotis. For breakfast, its absolutely 100% pure milk and rotis.
3. On the other hand, my beef supplier is really a genuine guy, one day he turned me away, saying, "sahab aaj achha nahin hai, kal aiye". Now, I am looking at it two ways, one, is if tomorrow I am short of help, its more convenient for me to serve the meat raw. On the other hand, what if my precious chap gets tapeworm?
4. Personally, I will think more about this, keeping in mind the option of deworming every three months as suggested by Yaj and Moa.
Lets keep this discussion going chaps....
Best Regards

[Yaj]

Hvj1 you can consider raw chicken as an alternative.if uncooked the bones are safe and will be a good sorce of calcium and phosphorus to your dog. Worldwide chicken carcasses are a popular source of meat for people who feed raw,BARF etc. In India you will get chicken "backs" (the part of the carcass left after the wings,breast and legs have been removed) in most major metros. It has a good muscle to bone ratio and the skin too can be fed.
In Mumbai it is available at RS 25-30 a kg and usually available round the year.
Please consider feeding a super premium puppy food in the first year since balancing the mineral content is not too simple. In large breeds like Mastiffs this is quite important. I have found Bento Kronen (growth) to be the best food available in India at present. Most of the other brands have a lot of harmful preservatives in them.
I usually feed this for the first year and then switch to a meat+ fish based diet after that.
Regards,
Yaj.

[hvj1]

Hi Yaj,
You mean pedigree, which is most easily available has too much preservative? Where does one get Bento Kronen? Whats the price and shelf life, I am asking, so that if I can find a supplier in Pune, I can stock up. Also what fish, do you feed, we have plenty of river (sweet water fish) like, mangur, katla,rohu, maral,rawas. vaam (eel like fish)These range about Rs 60/- kg. But what do you do about the bones, wont they harm the insides, or perhaps you are referring to dried fish, like bombil?
The raw chicken input was great, thanks. BTW, I plan to breed the dogs in Satara, close to where we are planning the Tiger NGO, here the leopard population is very high, so any ideas and suggestions?
Regards.

[kanwar76]

Nice Dogs HVj1,

Look handsome

For some strange reason none of my dogs ever touched raw meat and I am talking about GSD's, Lab, Great Dane and a pom

I recently picked up a pup to help our watchman guard our building. Nothing exotic just a mixed breed because I am not too sure how many days other owners will let it remain in building

-Inder

[sa_ali]

I have a pair of Rampurs at my farm.They are real hardy dogs which have somehow managed to come back from the brink of extinction.

I sourced mine from the Hamlet of Rampur.It took me nearly two years to find the correct type.

Dr. Bhimsingh from Bangalore and Mr. Tandon from Bareilly who are authorities on Rampur Hounds helped me a lot in this regard.

Can you pls post pics of your rampur hounds, may be you can PM, we dont want to hijack this thread.

[Yaj]

Pedigree is the worst followed by,purina,eukanuba etc some of the indian foods dont even have a proper detailed ingredient list.Even Royal Canin which is a relatively decent brand doesnt supply India with their premium products which are preservative free. The ingredient list will contain BHA,BHT which are known carcinogens.Additionally most of the fish used is not of human grade so by US law have to be preserved with ethoxyquin which is also a carcinogen. The better foods are preserved with tocopherols and have human grade fish. The main Bento supplier is in Mumbai but they have their distributors and will surely supply to Satara. I can give you their number if required.It can be purchased in 3kg and 15 kg bags and shelflife is pretty good.
The fish I usually feed my dogs is mackerel since it has the omega acids which keep their coats in good condition,sardines are good fish to feed too for the same reason. Bones of these two fish are harmless,in fact all the fish bones in my house(and we eat a lot of sea food) go to the dogs and they love itand chew them well before swallowing.But some of the Western breeds tend to gulp down their food so they should be watched initially.
Freshwater fish like rohu ,katla etc have large relatively stronger bones so while raw will not be a problem, on cooking they may cause problems.
Dry fish has too much salt so I give it only occasionally as a treat(they love it because of the strong smell).

As for chicken backs I feel it will be difficult in Satara, since I have been told that it is not available in Satara, Kolhapur etc since the demand for boneless chicken,breast pieces,leg pieces etc is low. There people generally prefer to buy the whole chicken.
If you can find a larger poultry which supplies these to some of the food majors then there is a possibility of sourcing it.
Regards,
Yaj.

[Nitro Express]

My Rampurs are on a mix diet.I give them everything from rotis and porridge to eggs and chicken.Once in while I also feed them minced raw meat (only when the weather is cool).Since they are in my farm, one of the farm hands cater to their food requirements.Eggs, chicken and milk are free of cost being in the farm.
In the city it becomes difficult to provide my GSDs with home food on a regular basis.As such I feed them Royal Canin.Thrice a week I also give them hard boiled eggs.In winters I do resort to giving them minced raw meat.I buy a whole goat from the local village and then get it butchered by the local butcher.I freeze the meat after that.This way I ensure that my dogs are getting good quality meat.
Once in a while, I give my dogs boiled Rohu or Katla head.It is good source of Omega 3 and helps keep their coat in condition.

Worms in dogs are a problem in a tropical country like ours.Deworming them every three months should keep infestation under check.Just remember not to use the same deworming medicine over and over again.Once a year I suggest that ivermectin be used in this regard.Also remember to give the dog a liver tonic a week before and a week after deworming.

Nitro Express

[thomast1]

nice discussion on Dogs . hvj1 nice pair of dog you have there. They will grow into your family. and on Raw Vs cooked Diet.
we have had long discussion by emails about this in a group, majority it from US, and the split is pretty even at 50:50. with advantages there is disadvantages to both. As Yaj rightly said, in the Indian context its good to feed cooked food, and deworming in 2 months is needed even with this, Especially if they dig earth to play or have access to open ground/ravines.
and about leopards, you might need to guard the dogs when they are young, proper disposal of the excreta is a must, it is an open invite for any predator. And yes leopard is a natural predator of Dogs, but will think twice before attacking a pair of adult dogs.
Thomas

[Yaj]

BTW, I plan to breed the dogs in Satara, close to where we are planning the Tiger NGO, here the leopard population is very high, so any ideas and suggestions?
Regards.

Well for starters I would have at least four dogs, enough to deter the leopards. A single dog or even a pair regardless of size are no match for a full grown leopard and indeed easy prey. I have known people in and around Dehradun who have lost a dog a year to leopards even though they have had packs of four and above of Tibetan mastiffs/Bhotiyas.
You can consider keeping a pair of the local Pashmis or Caravan hounds but beware that there is lot of mixing with greyhounds in the Satara area.
Regards,
Yaj.