Educate an American! Honor killings and castes

[Steve007]

I am posting this with the sincere hope that no one thinks I am being critical of India,along with the link so you can see where I get this information.The formerly well-respected NY Times has great exposure in some elements of US society,but there is no doubt that they are seriously politically-biased.I am not in a position to say this is true (the bias) regarding India, but it is definitely possible, so I'd hoping you guys can clarify this.

You;ll note that possibly-isolated examples of honor killings over caste is backed up by statistics such as:

"Intercaste marriages are protected under Indian law, yet social attitudes remain largely resistant. In a 2006 survey cited in a United Nations report, 76 percent of respondents deemed the practice unacceptable. An overwhelming majority of Hindu couples continue to marry within their castes, and newspapers are filled with marital advertisements in which parents, seeking to arrange a marriage for a son or daughter, specify caste among lists of desired attributes like profession and educational achievement."

I am not one who thinks every country should be the same (well, the same good things as I perceive them, anyway), but must say that, if true, I am somewhat taken aback and I am certain the still-substantial readers of the NY Times are as well. I know about castes (a, ahem, foreign concept here), but sort of figured it was of the past, though income and educational levels will always vary between people and, to some degree, families.

Anyway, if someone might comment, without thinking that I Intend to be critical, I'd appreciate it. I apologize if I have brought up an offensive subject. I was just mightily surprised by the article, though it is not an entirely reliable source.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com:80/id/38178101 ... york_times

[shooter]

Well done steven for bringing up this topic. man i hope no one gets banned.
Let the fireworks begin................

[Steve007]

Just a note to let you know that I have received several PMs explaining this. Shooter in particular was quite helpful. As stated, I had no wish to bring up a contentious subject or one that might result in hurt feelings, but this is so foreign (a pun ) to my experience that it is difficult to know how to ask about it properly, I'll PM those who have volunteered to clarify in the future.I have travelled widely and known many people of widely varied cultures quite well, but it does seem that India is a little different. Thanks to all who have responded via PM.

And then there was the time that I offered a Turkish girl's brother 7 camels and a bolt of red cloth for his sister..

Edit for typos only. I spell brilliantly, but type poorly.

[Sakobav]

Steve007

Really doubt that joke about Turkish girls the few I have met were brains and beauty rare combo..unless off course you were there prior to Ottoman empire or there abouts LOL

Here is from BBC explaining this cowardly and despicable blot on India

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters ... d_for.html
Killing for 'honour'

Soutik Biswas | 04:31 UK time, Wednesday, 23 June 2010

Haryana couple Manoj and Babli were killed in 2007 (Photo: Shakti Vahini) You can get killed for falling in love in many parts of India. Especially, if you or your lover - and sometimes, spouse - "defy" the preordained rules of the country's fiendishly complex caste system. You can invoke the ire of your family and community and get killed if you marry within your caste, outside your caste, within your sub-caste and so on. You can also get killed for marrying outside your religion.

For many years, urban Indians believed such "honour killings" only happened in remote rural areas, mainly in the northern states of Haryana, Punjab and parts of Uttar Pradesh. Now, they are being reported from the capital Delhi - two couples and a girl in the past week alone. At least 26 others have been killed in Haryana and western Uttar Pradesh in the past 18 months. In neighbouring Punjab, one of India's most prosperous states, police records talk about 34 "honour killings" during the past two and half years - that's one killing a month. The police admit that many more killings may go unreported.

Sociologists say the rising number of such killings point to a collision between the old and young, the conservatives and the liberals, between old India, residing in its villages, and new India, thriving in its cities. They say as India becomes more urbanised, young men and women flock to its crowded cities, looking for work and love, far away from the watchful eyes of their elders and communities. They go to work, and often, fall in love, and invite retribution from their families.

So, very often, such freedom is short lived, as the boys and girls are duped into "meetings" by their families and relatives only to end up being killed brutally. The majority of the murders, police say, are carried out by the girl's family - the family's "honour", the families say, is at stake when their daughters get involved with lower caste men. The killers and their kin are frighteningly unrepentant about murdering their own. "I have no regrets," the uncle of one of the girls whom he allegedly killed recently told journalists, "I will punish them all over again if given another chance."

So what about the myth about that "honour killings" happen only in villages? In this age of globalisation, India lives with one foot in the villages, and the other in cities. Urbanisation is incomplete; there is a lot of urban-rural overlap. Entire families do not migrate to cities, and links with villages remain strong. So although there is more freedom for youngsters to work and mingle in cities, if they end up chosing partners of a lower caste, their elders and communities who live in villages can easily object. "It is a ressertion of community control over those individuals and families on which elements of democracy, capitalism and globalised economy have encroached," says Prem Chowdhry, a scholar who has investigated such killings for decades.

"Honour killings" are not merely about caste. Sociologists believe it's also about sections of the society that are intensely anti-women. In Haryana - the state with possibly the highest number of cases - more women have begun working. Expansion of women in the workforce between 1981 and 1991 was 63%; the increase of men in the workforce during the same period was 26%. Educated women, many village collective heads tell privately, are a "menace".

There are also some baffling double standards. How else can one explain the fact that men in Haryana routinely "purchase" women for marriage from other, lower castes - and even religion - from other parts of the country because there are too few marriageable girls available in their villages?

India has ignored "honour killings" - a lawyer recently called a "national scandal" - for too long. It has denied that they have happened, pointing to its neighbour, Pakistan, as the place where they are prevalent. Human rights groups across the border have generated enough noise and forced their rulers to introduce laws to stop honour killings. In comparison, an Indian representative at a United Nations committee in 2000 actually denied reports of "honour killings" of women.

A spate of killings in the ruling Congress party-led state of Haryana - where traditional village collectives have been actually found to order such killings - and now in Delhi has prompted the country's Supreme Court to ask the government what it is doing to prevent them.

It's good that India has finally woken up to this reprehensible crime. The courts are asking the governments to protect couples who defy tradition. There are reports of an impending law against such killings, like in Pakistan. But citizens, politicians and rights groups need to stand up and protest loudly. Because "honour killings" are no longer India's best kept secret.

[m24]

Steve, an interesting article attached for your perusal. The Psychology Behind ’Honour Killings’ in India

The concept of Gotra

Regards

[goodboy_mentor]

Steve007,
If you want to dig deeper into the caste system in India from historical perspective and the historical social attempts against it. Work of one author based on work of various other authors:
http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/Si ... lution.pdf

[Big Daddy]

Hi m24, the link was educative for many of us in India too.
Steve, it's more like this (and i do not mean to rake up any bias). If a white girl were to come up and say "hi dad, i'm getting married to this black guy...". What would be her pops first reaction?
Yes it indeed is a shame that such divisions prevail in modern society. We had this experience in my aunts family, when my cousin married a girl from another cast and they were refused entry in to the house forcing my dad to intervene and daring any one to stop them. Now every things well and every one accepted.
But in the broader context, India is experiencing a surge i 'love marriages' and many marriages 'lovingly arranged' (when parents see sense and decide to get them married with family around). Now a days we do not hear of any honor killings in the south of the country, and the ones reported in the north are far fetched (though for sure the ones being reported are the tip of an ice berg).
With so many girls being educated, colleges all over the country having their fair share of migrant students, i would be surprised to hear of frequent 'honor killings say 2 generations down the line.

BD

[xl_target]

There is another factor to consider. If the police force was more effective and the people perpetuating these atrocities knew they were going to jail for their actions, I'd be willing to bet that you'd see a lot less of these kinds of crimes. I'd also be willing to bet that a lot of that so called "honor" would be satisfied real quick, if the person knew for sure that he was going to face a murder rap.

[mundaire]

[brihacharan]

> I too agree.
> However if it's ignorance, apathy or sheer unwillingness to change their beliefs, only strict law enforcement is the answer.
> In true spirit 'Let no one be above the Law'.
Brihacharan

[Big Daddy]

Well, for starters i think the word "honor" should be stopped and replaced with "murder". I'm sure many relatives will take pride in the word "honor" but would shun the stigma of having a murderer in the family.
xl_target well said.

[Steve007]

Thanks for the additional comments and links. Also thank you to Vikram, who sent me an extensive and clear PM on this subject.I may be the most knowledgable American on this subject who hasn't been to India, which isn't saying much. If you asked ANY well-educated American here about the Indian Caste system, he would tell you about one caste and that would be..uh, well, do they still say, Untouchables? I most sincerely apologize if this is a bad word; it is difficult to know what is incorrect to mention.

I suppose what is confusing for Americans to figure out is that while people everywhere do want their chldren to marry those of similar background, that means generally race or religion. Indians are all (I am overstating this, I realize) of the same race and religion,so it's surprising that there are additional complicating factors. I have seen something like this before; I've travelled widely in Africa, and the many tribes have, shall we say, serious interpersonal differences.

It is also apparent that urban, educated and Westernized is not rural, not well-educated and non-Westernized which I do have to keep in mind when thinking about India.

Thanks for your replies and links.It is worth learning things for its own sake, and India is worth learning about.

I do not, by the way, take this as an automatic negative about India. As Mitt Romney (former and future Presidential candidate and a Mormon) said,"every religion has some things that seem a little funny to non-practitioners". I realize this is culture and not religion, but I think Governor Romney's observation is correct inmnay spheres. My wife is of a different religion than am I, and Romney's statement is definitely true.

[kb100]

Just for your info Steve... 'Untouchability' was abolished by law a long time back. All indans are considered equal under law. I personally have not come across one single act of untouchability in my life so far - even in my extended circle - however I will not go to the extent of saying it is totally extinct. You might have one odd practitioner her and there - just as you have the Neo-Nazis/white supremacists or the equivalent there - just a bunch of people thinking they are 'superior' for one reason or the other!

However caste systems exists.. You will be surprised that there are over 2000 versions of Christianity being practiced here. This is beyond the commonly known Roman Catholic, Protestant, etc.. Here we have CSI, Marthomites, Jacobites, Syrian Catholic, Syrian Orthodox... and I can go on! Its almost if one can flog together a set of people, one can spin off ones own dominion. This is true for other religions as well. Inter dominion marriage used to be generally frowned upon.

Unfortunately the caste system is deeply ingrained in our system. It forms a BIG part of our politics (vote banks). 'Caste' continues to be a column we need to fill right from the time we file for our birth certificates, and all thru our lives. There are education, job and other reservations for certain castes/sections of society - sometimes in excess of 50-60%! Dont think any politician dares to even moot the idea of abolishing all that.. and till such time this will continue to exists in whatever shape size or form.

Personally I have seen drastic thawing of these barriers over the last few years. Mixed marriages are more common and accepted now a days in most cities and towns. Villages can tend to be a lot more traditional considering lack of exposure etc. However every generation is getting progressively more emancipated and liberated. Things can only improve!

[MoA]

Its a bunch of ignorant people who know not better.

[xl_target]

Moa, I think they know better. It's just that they feel they can get away with it.
When the British abolished Sati , a few people still tried to clandestinely continue the custom. After they found out that anyone encouraging, taking part in or having knowledge of( etc.) the act would get caught and prosecuted, the practice disappeared very rapidly.