For all you big bore shooters... a must have...

[Bespoke]

Shooter,

You mean if we were to fly in different Aircrafts MoA would choose pilot with 100 hours of flying experience and I will choose one with 10000 and his plane is less likely to crash than mine



Speaking of wavelength ,I think I do catch yours!

[Vikram]

You can develop a flinch with any caliber. Shoot enough and I can pretty much guarantee you will develop one with a high recoiling caliber.

Anyone who knows anything about shooting any kind of firearms and has a sensible head on his shoulders knows that the flinch decreases with time and practice not the other way round..

Special note for upcoming shooters from Mr MoA
"Please don't shoot too much for coming competitions or you will develop a flinch"

I see that some of our friends do not agree with MoA's statement about flinching.

Before we go any further,please watch this video and pay attention to what the gentleman says about volume shooting.

[youtube][/youtube]

Flinching may go away with practice, using correct form and a few ruses.But,flinching is not induced by one -off experience of recoil alone. Volume shooting is often a cause too. There are numerous instances where volume shooting reduced a shooter to very bad flinching irrespective of whether it's 12 bore trap rounds or much milder.410.

Please give a read to the following pages on flinching and reasons for it.

http://tinyurl.com/33nb6ka

We all have something to learn from each other. Practical wisdom should not be neglected.

Best-
Vikram

[MoA]

Shooter/Vikram,

No point in arguing with keyboard shooters. Its easier and every one gets groups in the zeros. Someone who doesnt understand the difference between wearing out a a barrel and blowing one up, isnt worth it. The problem with fighting people in the gutter is they pull you down to their level and beat you with experience.

[eljefe]

Yeah, I thought I could handle big bore recoil -found out the hard way not to try a cheapo 338 LM, my cheek is still tingly!Give me a normal brit double any day.I must add that dislodging /dislocating stuff like retina is possible with heavy recoil, besides the ol fav collarbone fracture and scope eyebrow.There was this post QUOTED on NE about some jerk proudly talking about his tingly arm and neck and pinched nerve after some major recoil from some oddball caliber. Seemed he had a cervical spine injury...
As for flinch, like all bad habits, it can / does develop insidiously and if undetected/ uncorrected, obviously can only become more prominent, as muscle memory overtakes the more widely accepted 'brain memory' for a particular event. Very easily seen if someone is practicing clay or on a target-a misfire or an intentional 'non reload' during course of fire shows the shooter actually wincing-as he pulls the trigger-but gun doesn't fire! muscle memory. idea is , let the muscles build up a memory of psychomotor actions-if done right-SKILLS, if wrong-flinch ! if its the wrong tech, it is obviously still continued!
Not comparable to a Pilots flying time skills accrued.They constantly track/check each other and periodically go thru a check ride etc
I was in a plane doing a casevac,when engine revs went down and we busted all tyres during an emergency landing at an uncontrolled airfield. The ONLY thing that kept us alive was the fluid, almost anticipated movements of the pilots.Well trained muscles respond to stimuli.I guess?
The design of the Uzi was I believe-Hand meets hand -in the dark. Muscle memory. As I read somewhere:
beginners do it again and again till they get it right
Pro's do it again and again-so they DONT GET IT WRONG
While all are entitled to their opinions , no one has to be totally right or totally wrong to belong...

[Vikram]

I once read about an article that talked about the effects of regularly shooting the redoubtable Weatherby magnums on the staff that range tested them.Detached retinas,concussions,collar bone problems,bleeding noses etc, were not uncommon.And they were not shooting them from the shoulder.

Rev.Grumpus R. Maximus rote about the muzzle blast of the .460 Weatherby Magnum he shot.

Cleared the ground in front of the muzzle for several feet. Dug up and blew old shell cases tumbling along the ground for yards towards the target and ripped the grass up as though it had been cut at the roots.
A TOTALLY VILE CALIBRE !

There is obviously a volume threshold which is quite low when shooting these big bores no matter how experience the shooter is. You may shoot a .243 or a .223 all the day and you may not be able to shoot the big bores more than 6-10 rounds a day.

I think, MoA was talking about being cautious while shooting them than intimidate novices. Of course, as Bespoke wrote, there is a way of taming the shrew!

All in good spirit,folks.

Best-
Vikram

[Bespoke]

Vikram and Eljefe,

Thank you for your comments.

I feel it comes down to individual.There are people who would learn from their mistakes and learn and there are people who wont learn,It is simple law of nature the more you do something the better you get at it and ones shooting skills are no different.

Vikram the videos you posted are kind of flinches comes from you naturally because we are humans the way you pull your trigger and brains sensory reactions and these are very negligible.The flinch as one can clearly read my first post can make out that when a person is sacred of the recoil..the recoil can in fact hurt him more.

Since the replier to that post did not has anything to argue on the facts of the post got down to pick up a word and tried to twist it.

Shooter/Vikram,

No point in arguing with keyboard shooters. Its easier and every one gets groups in the zeros. Someone who doesnt understand the difference between wearing out a a barrel and blowing one up, isnt worth it.

That is why I have 20 posts and you have 1000+ .

The problem with fighting people in the gutter is they pull you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Before I lower myself to your level and lower the tone of a public forum like you already have

Note: Request to Moderator to check the language in quoted post and if you think its appropriate.I will post my reply soon.

[Subal das]

I started shooting my father's 12g O/U quite early in 7-8 years. I remember I was hit few times quite badly, but later learned to keep shotgun tightly to the shoulder. if it is kept tight then there is no gap for shotgun to travel and all recoil absorbed by body. keeping rifle/shotgun loose, that seems like mistake what beginners do

[MoA]

Vikram and Eljefe,

Thank you for your comments.

I feel it comes down to individual.There are people who would learn from their mistakes and learn and there are people who wont learn,It is simple law of nature the more you do something the better you get at it and ones shooting skills are no different.

Vikram the videos you posted are kind of flinches comes from you naturally because we are humans the way you pull your trigger and brains sensory reactions and these are very negligible.The flinch as one can clearly read my first post can make out that when a person is sacred of the recoil..the recoil can in fact hurt him more.

Since the replier to that post did not has anything to argue on the facts of the post got down to pick up a word and tried to twist it.


That is why I have 20 posts and you have 1000+ .



Before I lower myself to your level and lower the tone of a public forum like you already have

Note: Request to Moderator to check the language in quoted post and if you think its appropriate.I will post my reply soon.

OK lets look at things simply.

You seem to have no idea about shooting. Including what a big bore might be. If you had paid attention you would know I shoot the 45-70 at ranges you wouldnt know the target is at. Or what a BP bullet might do. Do you know without a search on Google the performance of a 485 grain bullet over 64.5 grains of fffg between a 200 and 300 yard target?

Or how your beloved 375 HH will do between your average 20 yard zero and 1000?

I do.

On Post counts... so if you are more active it is bad?

Do you even know what a flinch is?

Ever shoot a .300 WM which in your books is a pea shooter; free recoil?

I will call you out with what ever big bore your have, and shoot them better than you can.
Get me banned on this forum. I dont care, and I actually challenge you.

[Bespoke]

Persistence is a fool's best asset.

You seem to have no idea about shooting. Including what a big bore might be. If you had paid attention you would know I shoot the 45-70 at ranges you wouldnt know the target is at. Or what a BP bullet might do. Do you know without a search on Google the performance of a 485 grain bullet over 64.5 grains of fffg between a 200 and 300 yard target?

I have much better things to do than read and pay attention to "YOUR" posts.Thank you

Or how your beloved 375 HH will do between your average 20 yard zero and 1000?

When did i say .375 HH is my beloved? Its an Incomplete question since you did not mention bullet weight and type but in any case it has much flat trajectory then your 45-70.

On Post counts... so if you are more active it is bad?

I was merely answering your query about keyboard shooter.It was you who raised the question.

Do you even know what a flinch is?

You mean real meaning of "flinch" or your version?

Ever shoot a .300 WM which in your books is a pea shooter; free recoil?

.300 WM recoil free?? I think i missed where i said that can you please remind me?

I will call you out with what ever big bore your have, and shoot them better than you can.
Get me banned on this forum. I dont care, and I actually challenge you.

wh@r*s and dogs challenge people too often then kind of language you used in one of your posts revealed everything about your background and education so its not a surprise.If one call's for a challenge infront of people you give our name ,locations details etc...I don't share that information either but nor do i challenge people in every second post

[eljefe]

Bespoke:

1. "...pull your trigger and brains sensory reactions and these are very negligible..."

What I understand by 1 :
is that; the flinch can be overcome with out your NEGLIGIBLE sensory reaction from the brain? excuse me! everything, IS because of the brain, and I wouldnt label it NEGLIGIBLE.
If you could control the ' negligible ' sensory reactions of your brain, you could heal yourself from tumours (actually,have NO disease) slow /fasten up your heart rate by yourself,clear up clogged arteries and have no strokes or heart attacks (oh wow-bl**dy nirvana) and many other impossibles.
All I read in your posts is homilies and beaten to death similes. No hard facts, some thing about how a MAN should be able to control recoil and some farfetched negligible sensory brain reaction. I wonder, if you can give us a less twisted , easier to understand neurophysiologically valid explanation?not some seemingly self made syllogisms.
If this is to be some sort of a debate or a fair argument, some verifiable sources and similar would be appreciated, instead of degenerating this into a bit*h fight and talking about education and background and family. Next thing you'll be propogating some sort of national reservation for recoil.On the flip side, i am sure a well muscled castrati 'hijra' yup, its legal to use this word, could handle a 470 comfortably-inspite of the lack of manliness.There was a bloke called Starling, who is rolling around in his grave after this neurophysiological negligible blasphemy from you, ordinarily called 'phattas'

2. "...It is simple law of nature the more you do something the better you get at it..."
laughable.
If you start doing a physical /psychomotor action WRONG from the first time ,UNCORRECTED, after a 100 or 10,000 tries , you will still be doing it WRONG.Why? muscle memory develops and lulls the body into a false sense of compliance. (The few times you get it RIGHT is when the negligible brain sensory reactions took over and did the right thing.)
Why do you think coaches film their players?
Try a simple game of darts. Eyes asses space/distance trajectory etc, tell brain,which tells hand when / how much to raise, contract etc and release. ideally, with 'negligible sensory reaction', should go straight to the target,right? unfortunately, you forgot to hold your breath, or released on the 2nd beat of the heart, instead of BETWEEN the beats (yeah, if your brains sensory reactions were that negligible, you could do that, y'know)so 400 tries later, muscles know what to do WRONG, you've brained the barmaid half a dozen times, voila.


2. "...It is simple law of nature the more you do something the better you get at it..."
Pathetic
Flinch is a NATURAL defensive , bodily reaction, WRONG by our 'shooting' standards.It has to be visualised/witnessed, the degree of the fault established and a corrective method implemented.No, this is not from some QC handbook (though i have been through some major QC in my time ) Cant be corrected by shooting a 1000 rounds with a shoulder breaker,or a Anschutz match rimfire, in the delusional idea that all it takes is to correct a wrong is to REPEAT the wrong and be a 'mard'
In a keen debate, one counters facts with facts-I dont see that happening with you-all I see is word play.and then you go running -mods please moderate language blah blah blah. and bring in family, education, upbringing whatever.Why is all that so important? this is NOT a matrimonial column to tell lies for dowry.

3. "...Also grip the rifle like a man and do not flinch..."



See, this? I for one am not going to guess about the sex of this shooter, SHE'S not gripping the rifle like a man and jeez, no flinch ( to me) she's even got a follow through!

4. .300 WM recoil free??
NO, its NOT a typo, it IS free recoil it does not mean 300 win mag is RECOIL FREE. Many a slip twixt the cup and the lip, or is it just plain ol dylsexia?
Oh, the usual caveat: I dont know You and MoA from adam , but got sick of your tosh
so if you guys have finished the pissing contest, I declare the loser-this post-which was guttered.

[Bespoke]

Eljefe,

1)As far as note to Moderators is concerned it wrote that the tone of this forum should not be lowered not because i am not capable of defending myself but since moderators thought the language was appropriate i chose to post my reply.It was not hard for me to write some crappy words right away

2)Inspite of your long techno babble I am sorry to say i will still go with my practical experience Thank you.I Still believe the more you shoot the better you will will be at shooting and recoil is not an issue if you know how told handle a firearm.

3) As far as my posts are concerned I have tried to keep them to the point.I am not a self proclaimed expert ( as quiet a few guys here are) but i do know a little about my stuff.

4) Since you mention playing with words i think your post is classic example.

5) The girls held her rifle as it should be.

6) You are no one to judge ,specially me.

With all due respect I am withdrawing from this forum.

[eljefe]

You dont need my esteemed techno babble to withdraw from here-its called trying to save face
.If you are MAN enough to reply point by point, include your big bore experience, and pics on how to hold a big bore ? now you've got me hacked

"I am not a self proclaimed expert but i do know a little about my stuff"
operative word is LITTLE

Am not judging you-Am COMMENTING on your phattas
so, you must be an awfully fast speed reader to wade thru all that techno babble and do a precis in 3 min flat out-why? Guess my techno babble is longer than yours?

[Vikram]

Eljefe,

1)As far as note to Moderators is concerned it wrote that the tone of this forum should not be lowered not because i am not capable of defending myself but since moderators thought the language was appropriate i chose to post my reply.It was not hard for me to write some crappy words right away

2)Inspite of your long techno babble I am sorry to say i will still go with my practical experience Thank you.I Still believe the more you shoot the better you will will be at shooting and recoil is not an issue if you know how told handle a firearm.

3) As far as my posts are concerned I have tried to keep them to the point.I am not a self proclaimed expert ( as quiet a few guys here are) but i do know a little about my stuff.

4) Since you mention playing with words i think your post is classic example.

5) The girls held her rifle as it should be.

6) You are no one to judge ,specially me.

With all due respect I am withdrawing from this forum.

Bickering apart, Bespoke, in fairness, there is no word play in either MoA's or el Jefe's posts but scientific and verifiable FACTS. We do not doubt your experience but your understanding of your experience needs to be discussed. Both MoA and el jefe are not self-proclaimed experts.They ARE experts. Both own variety of guns and shot/still shoot many more than people like me can only aspire to and I shot some.

el jefe is India's first ER doctor and what he wrote about biological/psychological basis of our actions and reactions is not techno-babble.It is science.

No one asked you to leave this forum. It will be really great if you decide to stay back and give us your take on what el jefe wrote. As I said, lets leave the bickering aside.Come back to the point.

How do you define flinch and how do you explain it?

Does volume shooting help overcome flinch? How about shooting 100 .243 rounds and 100 .460 Weatherby Magnum rounds within two hours? Who will develop a flinch despite proper form and technique?Can anyone shoot 100 .460 WM rounds in a day without developing a flinch?

Look forward to your replies.It will really be a shame should you decide not to answer.

Best-
Vikram

[eljefe]

Yup, come back to the point. Dont MISS the point like - 300WM recoil free
instead of
FREE RECOIL.
Thats a form of flinch too, you know?And I was having a quiet evening, ah, well.

[Bespoke]

Vikram,

Here is my reply as promised,excuse my delay i had a very busy week.

As far as Scientific facts in these posts are concerned ,I agree Eljefe's posts are scentific but at the same time some of Eljefe's facts are just irrelevant in this context.The problem is Scientific beliefs change very often and I do not trust them beyond a certain point and people like Werner Heisenberg believed in that the more the complex a theory is the greater are the chances that it will break down.

Off topic but I myself have been Involved with Financial markets since i was 18 and I have seen people who' computer screens look like they are from another Galaxy and they fail to make any money why because they think can crack the everything with reasoning.

Reasoning and scientific terms are the reason why most of there Philosophers end of taking their own life and most of top tier scientists turn mystiques.We have good shooting days bad shooting days..women have bad hair days and good hair days ....why? Can we put that into logic? The most intelligent people are the most depressed and most of people with moderate intelligence like myself find belief in nature and practical experience ,that is why i follow simple rules of practical experience more than scientific terms

Since human brain is largely unexplored to which my Dr friend here i m sure would agree.It will not very wrong to say that most of the biological/psychological is largely based on assumption in neuroscience,there is no such thing as absolute truth.

None the less since it is a requirement here ,I will try and explain my points in scientific manner .

Its true that no one asked me to leave the forum,its my own decision which i will elaborate later in the post.

Coming back to point where it all started.

1) This thread started as recoil begin the main theme of the post and what i found upsetting was the fact that without understanding what the recoil is posters were posting things like recoil can break collar bones and detach retina's which is an incomplete statement and i replied to that.

I used the word Flinch there and for Majority of people and according to Oxford it means "make a quick, nervous movement as an instinctive reaction to fear or pain" and comes from old French word Old French flenchir ‘turn aside’ ,since in this context we can take out the Pain part because there is no pain before you pull the trigger so in this context the Instinctive reaction will be due to fear.In my first post that is what i exactly meant that good shooter would take proper position and precautions from recoil and then would forget all the other things like recoil etc and concentrate on his target..I am sure you have heard the metaphor of Arjun and eye of the fish.


MoA said " A flinch can be induced by a number of factors other than recoil. Anyone who has shot a lot, at some point has developed one. And a Flinch doesnt magically vanish, you ahve to work at getting rid of it once developed"

I don't think so that the Flinch (the flinch that matters is before you pull the trigger) is induced by any other factor than anticipation of recoil.I will not develop at first place if you shoot with correct position and sensibly.

In your video and then your link the video mentions flinching with volume shooting.

The word flinching here is not induced by fear of recoil but it is connected to your bodily function as someone said "Flinching is natures way of telling you that you need to take a break" and if you properly follow your body you will not develop a flinch take proper rest and then continue shooting but to tell someone that volume of shooting you will develop a flinch is not correct they will not if they have trained and shoot properly.



E.g When some start to learn how to drive and you start as bad driver and do not work on your driving and then say the more you drive the will get worse your driving with get , yes it will because first to start with you didn't learn to driver properly two you are not trying to improve it and yes it will get worst and will be very hard to get ride of your bad driving once developed because your used to it and on other hand someone who learns to drive properly from the start and continue improving himself will just get better and better at driving and same way if a good driver drives for 18 hours his body and mind will not bear it and he will become a bad driver..the initial aspect of driving badly from start and driving too much is two different aspects.

I was of the belief from the start that is first kind of scenario "shooting improperly" was essence of the thread.

That is what my first post was about learn to shoot properly and sensibly and you will have no problem.

Then of course MoA got down to using inappropriate language which was not called for.

and then Eljefe posted a reply saying that "Yeah, I thought I could handle big bore recoil -found out the hard way not to try a cheapo 338 LM, my cheek is still tingly!Give me a normal brit double any day."

The reason is that cartridges like .338 Lapua Mag have much much sharper recoil than NE calibers which most of the doubled are chambered for.

How many world class shooter have you see wince like that? If they do they need coaching

He goes onto say that the flinch can be developed as a bad habit.. bad habits do not catch on if you learn to do things properly have a proper start and train your mind to do right things and he contradicts his own post with example of pilots they are no different they are humans like us only difference is that they learned to do proper things at the right point of time and in proper manner all this means proper training again this is what exactly my first post was about learn to shoot properly and have one will have no problem.


In the next post i try to clear what kind of Flinch i meant to start with...and the reason i said those reactions are negligible are because those are reactions not action and reaction in most of cases is negligible as compared to actions which i will elaborate later in the post.

Here I wrote a note to moderator to check on the Language just for the reason that I didn't not want to lower the tone of the forum and wanted to continue this discussion in good spirit and proper manner and Eljefe took it as sign of weakness..I would not have been hard for me to type few abusive words right there and then but since this is a public form i refrained and when they didn't comment in the note i continued with my post and after i did that he came up with his post that i should refrain from using such language when i informed him well in advance.



Eljefe's,

Now lets consider your post


1. "...pull your trigger and brains sensory reactions and these are very negligible..."

What I understand by 1 :
is that; the flinch can be overcome with out your NEGLIGIBLE sensory reaction from the brain? excuse me! everything, IS because of the brain, and I wouldnt label it NEGLIGIBLE.
If you could control the ' negligible ' sensory reactions of your brain, you could heal yourself from tumours (actually,have NO disease) slow /fasten up your heart rate by yourself,clear up clogged arteries and have no strokes or heart attacks (oh wow-bl**dy nirvana) and many other impossibles.

1) I never said that they can be controlled!

2) The main signal from brain when pulling the trigger will be to command the finger to Pull the trigger (action)and when that happens and the negligible reaction can be anything but it will always be negligible compared to the action

For example

In Karv Maga they say never to punch anyone with your knuckles but with your closed fist sideways like hammer.
Why? because if you punch with your knuckles (which is action) your brain would know that this action will also hurt my knuckles and slows down the speed of your punch (that is reaction),My point is reactions will always be negligible compared to Actions like throwing a tennis ball 100 feet in air when comes back on ground would bounce 6 or 7 feet which is negligible.

I can use as many smilies as i want ,if you have problems with them I am sure you can get them removed from the forum.I would appreciate if you keep cheapo slang like "Phattas" to yourself to tell you the truth i don't even know what it means.


Your second point

"...It is simple law of nature the more you do something the better you get at it..."
laughable.
If you start doing a physical /psychomotor action WRONG from the first time ,UNCORRECTED, after a 100 or 10,000 tries , you will still be doing it WRONG.Why? muscle memory develops and lulls the body into a false sense of compliance. (The few times you get it RIGHT is when the negligible brain sensory reactions took over and did the right thing.)
Why do you think coaches film their players?
Try a simple game of darts. Eyes asses space/distance trajectory etc, tell brain,which tells hand when / how much to raise, contract etc and release. ideally, with 'negligible sensory reaction', should go straight to the target,right? unfortunately, you forgot to hold your breath, or released on the 2nd beat of the heart, instead of BETWEEN the beats (yeah, if your brains sensory reactions were that negligible, you could do that, y'know)so 400 tries later, muscles know what to do WRONG, you've brained the barmaid half a dozen times, voila.

1) If this point is Laughable why is it that when you thought of begin a physician why did you go to college and most of all why did you do your internship? you should have started practicing it as soon as you thought you want to be a doctor?

2)You are branding this comment as Laughable and then after 3 lines you ask me "Why do you think coaches film their players?" The answer is the Laughable statement itself that practice makes man perfect and my first the very first reply on this thread that you should do things in proper manner what is what coaches are for

3)As i said It brains sensory reactions cannot be controlled but you could train to work with them and for example most of people would say shoot between the heart beat as you mentions some of the top shooter learn to prefer to use the upbeat for the final push its just matter of proper training.

2. "...It is simple law of nature the more you do something the better you get at it..."
Pathetic
Flinch is a NATURAL defensive , bodily reaction, WRONG by our 'shooting' standards.It has to be visualised/witnessed, the degree of the fault established and a corrective method implemented.No, this is not from some QC handbook (though i have been through some major QC in my time ) Cant be corrected by shooting a 1000 rounds with a shoulder breaker,or a Anschutz match rimfire, in the delusional idea that all it takes is to correct a wrong is to REPEAT the wrong and be a 'mard'

1) I think you did not read my first post all I have been saying is proper training, proper posture,Proper shooting! Presidential bodyguards are trained to jump in front of a bullet within split second before blink of an eye even before their own brain send them signal that their life would be in danger why? They are trained !sensory stimulus and the subsequent behavioral response is much faster than anyone why? because the more you do something the better you become at it ...not so Laughable and pathetic?

[youtube][/youtube]

You need to learn something the so called shoulder breakers Like 460 wby mentioned are for Dangerous game not for target shooting yes body will get tired easily with some shoots but it doesn't mean that the person would flinch on first or second or 3rd shot because he has shoot too much of this rifle in the past! Infact his shoots would be much better placed!


3. "...Also grip the rifle like a man and do not flinch..."


As i said that girl held her rifle properly and with the statement I mean hold the rifle with firm grip and not delicate ladylike manner and , I was not aware that on this forum people want to dissect words for proper linguistic meaning,on YouTube how many videos will you find of women shooting properly like that and how many videos of women like this.

[youtube][/youtube]

Lets say when someone starts to shoot clays his or her body needs rest after 50 shots or so or maybe less and a well trained shooter will shoot for 45 to 60 days and then take a break of 30 days and then continue and slowly they can increase their body resistance to 200 shots in a go....and that is because properly done volume shooting.

To conclude the main topic of flinch and for further reading I would suggest book called "With winning in mind" by Lanny Bassham.he is an olympic shooter from U.S

What about Free recoil of .300WM? One needs 3 parameter bullet weight, velocity and weight of the rifle.

As far as question of posting my pictures and pictures of my firearms are concerned ,I have my own reasons which i will not like to mention on an open thread because it can alarm some of the members.I am sure you understand what i mean,if you don't i can pm.

Reason for withdrawing from this forum is that i joined it to have a positive and progressive experience of learning and sharing and not to waste time on b**ch slapping contest.