Anti-RKBA news

[m24]

Bad apples that are damaging the whole basket, that's what this article is all about:

a) http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 201490.cms

Just the other day, Himanshu Sharma had an argument with a petrol pump manager and was shot at by the guard. On September 29, two Delhi residents were shot at in Faridabad when they had gone to a restaurant for dinner and had an altercation over parking. There is suddenly an alarming rise in the use of fire-arms in the city. Guns are being pulled out on the slightest provocation as TOI reported recently, a young man whipped out a gun to clear a traffic snarl at the Gurgaon expressway toll gate.

The spurt in guns in the capital and its adjoining areas has got the police worried. It's a bigger menace than it thought with illegal firearms coming into the capital and possession of guns becoming disconcertingly common. Two IIT students suffered bullet injuries during an altercation between a petrol pump guard and a man in Madhu Vihar area of east Delhi on August 25 this year. Gangs such as Bunty's (who was killed in an encounter last year), the police discovered, were often pulling the trigger just for fun.

The use of guns has been going up for the past few years. This year there were 175 cases of reported fire arms use; last year there were 161. The police say that the gun culture has not just grown in the capital, but even more alarmingly in the NCR towns of Faridabad, Gurgaon, Noida and Ghaziabad.

The police recently arrested Manish Kumar, a 26-year-old graduate from Bihar, with 14 sophisticated weapons. He had apparently been supplying firearms to NCR for past one year and the family had built two bungalows in Munger from the money earned from the arms trade. Kumar reportedly told police that he had sold more than 200 guns to criminals in Delhi and NCR through his contacts in past one year.

Additional CP (crime and railways) Neeraj Thakur said, "The weapons seized from Manish were made in Munger. The accused used to get these weapons assembled in Munger after getting its componenets manufactured from different parts in Bihar. Each weapon was sold for anything between Rs 30,000 and Rs 50,000."

The seizure made this year by Delhi Police has also shown a spiral in illegal firearms seized ^ 300 this year as compared to 230 weapons last year, till October 15. Apart from providing firearms, the cops say that they are facing hurdles to stop the flow of ammunition. "The problem is due to easy availability of guns, both licensed and unlicensed,'' says an official at Control Arms Foundation of India (CAFI).

Regards

P.S. The last statement by CAFI official is hilarious considering the posts that we have regularly regarding non- issuance of licences.

[muthu]

Hats off to m24 for bringing out this point which will lead to a healthy discussion, rather than one side discussion.

This is what i mean in the post headed

"IFG Members support for RKBA PIL" by muthu on Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:38 pm in page 7


Guys, please try to understand, Emotions cannot be controled by normal humans.

Not that we are ir-responsible persons, over and above it,
emotions will overrule us at that second, which will lead us to a disaster of our life.

Of course, we will realise our mistake, but............

It is different from having a kinfe (also kitchen knife as some one replied.....), axe, sword, archery.... etc.,etc., from having a gun.

We will not use the above (so called) weapons in small quarels between humans, but if we have a gun, we will use it. It is human MENTALITY.

Leagel or illegal, my point is free flow of guns should be avoided.

Keep in mind, Guns are NOT the only way for self defence and protection.
May be, guns are for lazy people who THINK they are self protected by having a gun.

As agreed, for brisky people, there are 100's of ways of self protection.

Let us leave to our kids and grand kids, a peaceful environment,

rather than a scary environmet, where every one is equipped with a gun at their back, and not knowing from which direction, a bullet will taste his blood.

Take care.

[tingriman]

This is bullsh!2t, they are mixing Legal and Illegal aspects of fire-arms together and reaching the net result of condemnation of gun-culture, this is totally unfair. Most of the cases mentioned here are of illegal fire-arms, and I don't see, the easy availabilty of legal fire-arms anywhere. People have to wait for more than two years to get IOF made revolver/pistol. They confisticated 300 illegal fire-arms, that is good thing, we the IFGans have always discouraged any illegal and unlawful thing, with illegal fire-arms no exception. We should send this strong signal everwhere that our cause is to support the legal and responsible fire-arm ownership and I strongly believe that members at IFG are quite responsible and law abiding citizens and my experience tells, no sane fire-arm owner will pull the weapon out over minor dispute, as he understands the consequences of using deadly force. Those who pull the gun quite often are in almost all the cases are illegal gun owners, who deserve the right place with free meals and highest possible security.


cheers,
tingriman

PS

Pardon me Mithu, I don't agree with you. Emotions are controlable, those who get swept away by emotions, should not own fire-arm or better any arm for that matter. An ill tempered/insane person can display or use (better say mis-use) a knife or a fire-arm with same degree of insanity. Therefore for the best interest of society, no insane/ill-temper/im-mature person should arm himself. Those who bear fire-arm legally, know their social and legal responsibilities well.

cheers,
tingriman

[xl_target]

Guys, please try to understand, Emotions cannot be controled by normal humans.

Not that we are ir-responsible persons, over and above it,
emotions will overrule us at that second, which will lead us to a disaster of our life.

I'm sorry but I must disagree most strongly with your statements. Human Beings can control their emotions. That is what seperates us from animals.
If you know there are going to be severe consequences for your loose emotions, I'm willing to bet that you will control them.

I would suggest that most of these guys who draw down on other people for little apparent reason are making the decision because they think that they can get away with it.
Most people would refrain from drawing down on someone else if there was a good chance that:
1. They will face a severe jail sentence for threatening someone's life every time they try it. (I'm willing to bet that most of these guys think they won't get caught)
2. The other person is armed and would shoot back when threatened.

Remember that guns are inanimate objects. They cannot do anything by themselves. The person wielding the gun inappropriately is the problem, not the gun itself.
When a person blames guns as the cause of violence, it shows a serious defect in his/her logical thinking process. It brings to mind the fallacy that "because flies are always found around garbage, flies cause garbage".

It is different from having a kinfe (also kitchen knife as some one replied.....), axe, sword, archery.... etc.,etc., from having a gun.

I'm sorry but a weapon is a weapon. They are all inanimate objects. How they will be used depends on you and only you and not by human nature in general (as you have suggested). Carrying a deadly weapon is a huge responsibility and sadly, there are some people who are not up to that responsibility.

[cottage cheese]

Muthu,

Allow me to bring up some points to ponder:

1. Do you own a gun?

2. As per your thinking you shouldn't own one

3. Where do you stand?

4. We don't condone stupid people who use guns irresponsibly. But shit happens....anywhere. We have to live with it. More armed citizens there are around, the more careful will irresponsible citizens will be about pulling their guns. An armed society is a polite society.

5. If you were transplanted in the thick of a 26-11 situation.Indiscriminate shooting, no place to hide or run away. What then? Kung fu? pepper-spray?

6. One should be careful about controlling his her emotions then huh?

7. What do you mean by freely available guns? At least not legally in India.

8. Freely available guns are available only to criminals and terrorists.

9. Which is why Indian citizenry are the perfect soft targets.

10. Our kids and grand kids will never live in a peaceful environment. This is the basic nature of 'civilization'... and it will only get worse. All the better to equip them to cope with such.

regards,
cc

[m24]

My 2c worth:

1) Blame the man, not the gun. Gun doesn't tell you to pick itself up and use it whichever way you like. It doesn't have a say in any of this.
2) Shitheads like the one's mentioned in the news report should not be used by authorities as a measure, as an excuse for anyone not to have a gun. Sadly it happens.
3) Proper education about guns and its uses and misuses should be disseminated ( which is non-existent entity in India today).
4) Proper law enforcement and I mean proper and actual law enforcement needs to happen w.r.t. illegal guns.

Muthu: I don't agree that we as humans cannot control our emotions, even in any heated emotions. That's generalization. We definitely can. As xl truly said, that's what differentiates us from the animals.

As for legal free flow of arms, in which part of India is it happening?? Nowhere. Illegal free flow - Everywhere. But the legal gun owners are not responsible for that. If the administration as a whole has decided to do nothing about it, how can legal gun owners be blamed for that. Because that is what the TOI report is doing and that is what you're implying.

Do you know what is the 1st rule in a fight, in any actual fight? Get Armed. That was told to me by a good friend, and it is something which I have come to believe and agree. It can be a stone, a stick and yes, even a gun. Any leverage that will allow you to get out safe. And that's the bottomline, you getting out safe from a dangerous situation. Now, how you use that leverage and how the situation ends, now that would be speculation. Believe me, no sane-headed man likes a fight. People usually try to get out of situations which would lead to bloodshed. But when it is thrust upon you, you make sure that you are the person walking out and the other one's not. Basic survival instinct.

As for having a peaceful future for our kids and grand kids, well that's a hope, which we all should have. You do what you can do best and educate the people around you and leave the rest to them.

My point of posting this article was to highlight how irresponsible gun owners are damning the names and reputation of responsible ones and also of prospective one's.

Tingriman: I totally agree with you. Condemnation of Gun owners is what is happening here. I have already written to TOI against this biased report.

Regards

[Vikram]

Hats off to m24 for bringing out this point which will lead to a healthy discussion, rather than one side discussion.

It is different from having a kinfe (also kitchen knife as some one replied.....), axe, sword, archery.... etc.,etc., from having a gun.

We will not use the above (so called) weapons in small quarels between humans, but if we have a gun, we will use it. It is human MENTALITY.

Leagel or illegal, my point is free flow of guns should be avoided.

Take care.

Muthu, thanks for raising a few interesting points.As you said, it does get very boring to sit around the camp-fire and agree on everything.

I cannot add to what has been said by others.

You say that knives and axes are different from guns in their ability to kill? To an extent it is reasonable.But, in the hands of a determined attacker they can inflict astonishingly devastating results.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/08/japan

"Seven people were killed and a dozen injured in Tokyo today when a man launched into a stabbing frenzy on a busy shopping street.

The attacker, named in reports as Tomohiro Kato, 25, drove a rented truck into shoppers in the Akihabara area of the city before stabbing and slashing at people with a knife, apparently at random.
Japan's Kyodo news agency said the victims were six men, aged between 19 and 74, and a 21-year-old woman.
"

Now, read this from the same report

"Reuters quoted witnesses as saying Kato stopped when he was challenged by an armed policeman. Television footage showed a slight, blood-splattered man, believed to be the attacker, being put into a police car."

Why did a self-confessed madman who came to kill and get killed surrender without a fight? Did the guns in the hands of the Police change his mind?

Here come the kicker
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7508418.stm

"Japanese law already prohibits people from carrying a knife with a blade 6cm (2.4in) or longer unless they have a good reason to have it, although it's not illegal to possess a knife that long."

Pray tell,sir, did the madman obey the law to get a knife with a blade longer than 6cm? How could he kill 7 people and injure scores of others?

"Let us leave to our kids and grand kids, a peaceful environment"

Why Muthu, do you think legally and responsibly held guns would be used to harm our young?

http://abcnews.go.com/International/sto ... e=1&page=1

"It took just 10 minutes for a man armed with a kitchen knife to unleash terror in a Japanese elementary school in a stabbing spree that left eight school children dead and injured 21 other people."

One legally held gun owner is what that just may have prevented the mayhem.Do you agree?

Keep in mind, Guns are NOT the only way for self defence and protection.
May be, guns are for lazy people who THINK they are self protected by having a gun.

I would request you to give a practical solution to us in any of the situations describe above where a gun wasn't used.Why could not any one in the above situations help themselves?What kind of self defence techniques you suggest us to employ in case of armed robbers in your house or goons threatening you and your family etc.Would you call police?Would you challenge them to unarmed combat?Would you pray?Would you unleash your pomeranian dog on them and expect the poor beast to fight them off?

Please give a thought to what has been said so far.Good to have a civilised discussion.Thanks.

Best-
Vikram

[goodboy_mentor]

[hamiclar01]

Leagel or illegal, my point is free flow of guns should be avoided.

Keep in mind, Guns are NOT the only way for self defence and protection.
May be, guns are for lazy people who THINK they are self protected by having a gun.

As agreed, for brisky people, there are 100's of ways of self protection.

Let us leave to our kids and grand kids, a peaceful environment,

rather than a scary environmet, where every one is equipped with a gun at their back, and not knowing from which direction, a bullet will taste his blood.

Take care.

I am bewildered. If this is how you feel, pray explain why you have joined IFG?

[nagarifle]

Leagel or illegal, my point is free flow of guns should be avoided.

Keep in mind, Guns are NOT the only way for self defence and protection.
May be, guns are for lazy people who THINK they are self protected by having a gun.

As agreed, for brisky people, there are 100's of ways of self protection.

Let us leave to our kids and grand kids, a peaceful environment,

rather than a scary environmet, where every one is equipped with a gun at their back, and not knowing from which direction, a bullet will taste his blood.

Take care.

I am bewildered. If this is how you feel, pray explain why you have joined IFG?

i have the scent of a mole on my nostril.

[shooter]

muthuji you really believe taking out a gun and shooting the other person is human mentality!!
wow!!

muthuji, we spend years trying to learn about impulsive traits, best way of controlling them etc. study our backsides off trying to understand issues like anger/impulsivity/dissocial personalities in vain. but you have just summarised it in one sentence:

using a gun (not a dagger/axe/ knife etc) in a quarrel is human mentality.

This is soo cool. Muthuji i want to invite you to the department of forensic psychiatry in my hospital to give a talk. There is so much the professors there could learn from you.

A recent conversation with a gun owner and a ifg member, (and a good shot) who we all know but who i wont name will sum up muthuji's philosophy.

While talking about an incident in which a person HARMED his only child, this gun owner, nay gun user had only these words for him:

that person deserved to be shot for what he did to my child, but i wont do it as i am a law abiding citizen.

with that muthuji , i rest my case.


p.s. another thing muthuji, if u want peace, prepare for war.

[ravi.sharma]

Hi Muthu,

I can't add anything more to the comments made by the members above, apart from this line,

Hats off to m24 for bringing out this point which will lead to a healthy discussion, rather than one side discussion.

I thought, you wanted to have a discussion and all the members, those have posted here, none of them is attacking you, they are expressing their views, as you expressed yours and we all shall be more then obliged, to have your comments on the views posted. Till now it has been a healthy and sober discussion and it will be the same till the end. We all shall really appreciate to have your views posted. We can't change your thought process but our views can help you in re-thinking on yours, for better.


Ravi

[lionheartguru]

* no intened to harm anyone's feelings
To,
all anti-gunner members and guests

when the british came to india or rather when they were ruling india ,they bought guns with them , and we indians were fightin with swords !!!
when actually bhagat singh and all freedom fighters all started to fight with the same weapons that british used did india get freedom.

today if a "anti" is a big shot , straight forward ,white collared businessman and he gets a call from D'company...he will 1st wet his pants and then after thinking of his family/his life will he run to either the police or the arms dealer (legal/illegal doesnt matter), if anything else desnt work, will hire a strong fully armed security .!!!

point is , he anyways will use a gun directly or indirectly...( cops are gonna do the same ...if i am not wrong ... encounter!!)... if this is the case then why hell do these anti's live ??? better die or commit suicide if they dont have the guts to carry a gun to defend themselves or their families...

1 direct question @ anti's(all)
what will you do if a gang of armed men try to mess-up with any female from your family ??? 3 options
1) load your gun and shoot them
2) fight/attack bare handed (hopin for the best) and get shot
3) stand there like a coward and watch/pray to god

which option do you choose ???
if its yes read below...or if 2/3 , please leave right away

anywaysi know you will not
ask these question to your heart/brain/andar ka zameer or whatever and then.... all the anti's are free to reply

till then beware ...
there are all gunned LIONS out there

regards
LION-heart

[farhan.lateefi]

I agree with Lion Heart 10000000 %.

[Vikram]

Guru,

We did not win our Independence with guns.That would be Americans who did.Ours was an unarmed and largely non-violent struggle.

I truly appreciate the spirit you put into your words. It is very difficult not to be angry when people oppose legal and responsible gun ownership.There are a lot of people who are not anti-gun but indifferent or unwilling to pick up a gun to defend themselves or take up sport shooting.They are not necessarily bad people.However, if we start sounding angry,aggressive, use profanity etc,we will not only provide material to the real antis but lose a golden opportunity by alienating neutral people and potential converts to our side. We can make our point clearly and effectively without sounding aggressive. I am not criticising you but sharing my views.Also, when we write something important, the subject deserves more than one reading and clear writing.Helps the reader to understand what exactly we are saying.Apologise if I sound preachy.

Best-
Vikram