Berthier Rifle

[TwoRivers]

The Berthiers made for the "Turkish forestry" department were cut down rifles. The Turks captured them from the Greeks during the latter's misguided attempt after WWI to regain Anatolian lands that had been settled by Greeks in antiquity. Berthiers made by Remington were indeed "gorgeous; finished and blued like a fine sporter of the era. But even French WWI production retained excellent fit and finish.

Allied units fighting on the Salonika Front, Greeks, Serbs, Rumanians, Russians (who could afford to send troops, but not weapons), had been re-equipped with French weapons.

Never believe the story an American importer puts out. The M59 supposedly was a Bulgarian rebuild/adaptation from M91s and M91/30s supplied by the Russians after WWII.

The Berthier is easily rebored and chambered for the .348 Winchester. Requires just a bit of opening the feed lips up a bit farther forward. Fired shells will show a bit of the 8x51's double taper, but will last as long, or longer, than those fired in an M71 Winchester. Cheers.

[timmy]

The Berthiers made for the "Turkish forestry" department were cut down rifles. The Turks captured them from the Greeks during the latter's misguided attempt after WWI to regain Anatolian lands that had been settled by Greeks in antiquity. Berthiers made by Remington were indeed "gorgeous; finished and blued like a fine sporter of the era. But even French WWI production retained excellent fit and finish.

Allied units fighting on the Salonika Front, Greeks, Serbs, Rumanians, Russians (who could afford to send troops, but not weapons), had been re-equipped with French weapons.

This is an interesting theory regarding the origin of these rifles. However, I researched these rifles in an effort to ensure that I could find ammunition. I found that earlier Berthier rifles where not able to fire the later "Balle N" ammunition due to this ammo's neck size being increased. The rifle in question was stamped "N" on the receiver, indicating that it was chambered to use "Balle N" ammunition that the French introduced in 1932:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8mm_Lebel

So, while the rifle was originally made much earlier, it clearly was still in French hands long after WW1.

Also, my research indicates that these rifles were made up from a shipment the Turks intercepted -- the French had shipped rifles in from Lebanon into Iraq for anti-British forces in that country sometime in the late 30s. The Turks were interested in maintaining British goodwill and seized the weapons.

The Berthier is easily rebored and chambered for the .348 Winchester. Requires just a bit of opening the feed lips up a bit farther forward. Fired shells will show a bit of the 8x51's double taper, but will last as long, or longer, than those fired in an M71 Winchester. Cheers.

This may be possible, I don't know. However, my greatest consideration was the need to obtain cartridge clips for the Mannlicher-style magazine these rifles used, as seen in the picture above. Like the Italian Carcano and the German M88 rifle (or even an M1 Garand), these rifles require the use of a clip in order for the rifle to be used as a repeater.

[TwoRivers]

Interesting bit of information, though the "N" should stamped on the barrel, not the receiver, according to your source. The two "Turkish Forestry" rifles that I have had my hands on did not have the "N" stamp. It's too bad the Wikipedia's contributor let a few (other) errors slip in. Such as a rim thickness of 51mm; and failing to mention that the case is a shortened, not just necked down Gras case. Which, by the way, had a "Mauser" style case bottom and rim. Muzzle velocity of the "Balle D" was 700 mps/2297 fps according to the French; though American sources claim 2380. Never could find a source for "Balle N" ballistics.

Not just "may be possible", though you probably won't find confirmation in Newsweek, or Wikipedia.

That a rifle with the Mannlicher magazine needs the clip to function as a repeater goes without saying. Just like any rifle with a detachable magazine. Without the clip, or the magazine, they are single loaders.

Not that any of this belongs to a "7.62 Tokarev" thread.

Cheers.

[Vikram]

That is a very interesting rifle I must say.More I look at it, more I am beginning to like it.Timmy, if it is not too much to ask of you,could you please post some pictures of the action?Thank you.

Thank you both for some very interesting information.

Best-
Vikram

[timmy]

Interesting bit of information, though the "N" should stamped on the barrel, not the receiver, according to your source.

Do you mean like this:

or this:



Here is the source link, should you wish to see all the pics:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=71183

If you read through this post, pay close attention to the ones from "DocAV" regarding the source of these Turkish Forestry Berthiers. He is an Australian with his own company:

http://www.avballistics.com.au/

and is quite an expert on firearms, ammunition, propellant, and what-have-you. I have yet to see him be caught out, acting the expert and later proving to not know of what he speaks.

The Forestry carbine I saw was stamped "N", so that is all I can speak to. However, here is an article from "Guns Magazine" on Berthiers: It shows the "N" stamped quite clearly on the receiver... If you page back to the previous page, you can see the author shooting the Turkish Forestry rifle.

Additionally, here are pictures of two more Turkish Forestry carbines, both marked "N" on the receivers: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=1058

I did a search on this last forum for "balle" + "receiver." Apparently, these folks also believe that the marking for "Balle N" also appears on the receiver, including the moderator of the forum:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread. ... e+receiver
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread. ... e+receiver

so you may wish to notify them of their error.

claven2 also mentions here: http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=1225 that the receiver rings were stamped "N" for the Balle N round.

Here is another thread to which I referred when looking at the rifle, regarding making ammunition from 348 Winchester, but without reboring, and sticking with the 8mm French bore:

http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/ind ... -2616.html

That a rifle with the Mannlicher magazine needs the clip to function as a repeater goes without saying. Just like any rifle with a detachable magazine. Without the clip, or the magazine, they are single loaders.

Perhaps I should not, then, have said that to fire the weapon, one needed the clip, since everyone reading my post would automatically know that all Mannlicher-style magazines required clips and that all Berthiers used a Mannlicher magazine -- sorry.

The whole business looked like more than I wanted to get into.

-- Thu Aug 13, 2009 17:26 --

Vikram: I've found a host of nice quality pictures of Berthiers here:

http://www.collectiblefirearms.com/Rifl ... icher.html

about halfway down the page, along with a number of other interesting rifles!

[Vikram]

Thanks,Timmy for those links.

Best-
Vikram

[timmy]

Yes, sir! I've only seen a few of these Berthiers, and the Turkish Forestry carbine was by far my favorite. The workmanship of it was very very nice. The screw in the bolt does need to be removed to strip the action -- but that's something that would be more of interest to the military than to me. When I operated it, it was very smooth and pleasant. Now that I look back on it, I should have just accepted using it as a single shot for fun, I guess. But that's pretty much what I say about all of them that I didn't buy.

[clvt]

Hi Indians for Guns--that means all Indians with an honest interest in guns, their history, function etc., etc.,

Interesting to see new information on the Berthier guns.-- If you want further information I suggest you go to armesfrancaises.free.fr (and I don't know if it comes in English).

It is possible, and rather easy, to prepare Lebel cases from .348 Win ones. There is a description in : John J. Donnelly , THE HANDLOADERS MANUAL OF CARTRIDGE CONVERSIONS , which you may use. -- My procedure, which avoids the use of a 'trim die' is slightly different . If interested send me your net-address, and I'll mail it to you.-Krgds, thar06.

[TwoRivers]

Good research, Timmy. The Vichy connection, arms AND ammo, pretty much clinches the origin of these particular rifles. There is obviously more to learn about them. Still believe that only the chamber was stamped with the "N" on the French conversions, but that point is not worth arguing about. The main point really is that they were made up by the Turks from confiscated or captured weapons, and not made up and sold by the French to the Turks. Cheers.