All round medium cal centrefire rifle

[Fowad]

Friends,

I agree with what vikram have to say, down from 55 grains travelling at 4000 fps to 220 grain at 2700 fps. (I have not seen 240 although there may be one). From a Hare to a Charging Tiger by some Shikari back in the good old days ( As I have a few eye witnesses). What else do we need? I think .30-06 is adequate for an Elephant as Mrs. O'Connor said "It dosen't matter what you place in, what matters is where you place", as she came accross a hunter in Alaska who had only 1 rifle a .22 hornet and he made his living my selling Bear and other animal skins. She herself shot a Tiger with her 7mm rem mag.
The favourite rifle for hunting tigers for Nawab of Bhopal is said to be .240 H and H mag.
I thing .30-06 sprg is more than plenty for nearly all the medium game in the world.

Fowad

[timmy]

I do think that the .30-06 would be a very strong contender. Besides the availability of guns and ammo, it is probably one of the better compromises between shooting everything from varmints to dangerous game. No doubt there are better varmint and big game rounds, but the need to "do it all" is what we're talking about.

Ammo is a big deal here. There is such a wide range of bullets in .30 caliber that other calibers have some tough sledding ahead of them to dethrone it. Sure, 7mm is often thought of as the "ideal," and 8mm and .338 have their plusses, but the lineup from .22/.30 "Accelerator" rounds into the 220-250 gr. territory covers a lot of hunting needs -- not always optimally, put perhaps better than any other.

Another thing I would like to point out is that few folks who are really into hunting and firearms own just one gun. We might have a .22 for inexpensive plinking and target work that hones our eyes and body for using serious game-getters of some kind. We may even have a varmint gun, a big game gun, and perhaps even several, depending on the use intended. The one-gun hunter is someone who is primarily focused on other things, rather than firearms, unless there is a reason why one is constrained to have only one (or a few) rifles. In that case, a .30-06 will do nicely.

This isn't to say that in other areas, something else might do just as well. For instance, is there a reason why someone would insist on .30-06 over .315? Probably not. But where the issue is having one optimal overall caliber and the choice is based on just the cartridge capability, availability, and chambering, I would vote .30-06 (but without feeling a need to get into a disagreement about it).

[Vikram]

I think .30-06 is adequate for an Elephant as Mrs. O'Connor said "It dosen't matter what you place in, what matters is where you place",
Fowad

Walter ''Karamojo'' Bell reputedly shot qiute a few elephants with his 6.5X54 Mannlicher-Shoenauer and later with his .275 Rigby. Having said that,I would take a minimum .416 Rigby against an elephant if I must take upon.

Timmy said,

but the lineup from .22/.30 "Accelerator" rounds into the 220-250 gr. territory covers a lot of hunting needs -- not always optimally, put perhaps better than any other.

Could you please elaborate a bit about the ''accelarator'' rounds? Thank you.

Abhijeet, BTW, I see that you haven't mentioned your choice.

Best-
Vikram

[timmy]

Vikram:

Remington's Accelerator ammunition is loaded with a 55 gr. /22 caliber bullet that is placed in a plastic sabot. This picture gives a fair idea of how the bullet and sabot are made up:



This is a typical advertisement for such ammuntion:

Remington .30-06 Accelerator

I am interested in getting some sabots and bullets as reloading components to use in my Cz 52 chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev pistol. Here are the components and tools for loading .30 caliber sabots that are offered by a US supplier.

Sabot reloading supplies

In the case of 7.62x25 Tokarev, it is said that 1700 fps velocity is obtainable with this bullet/sabot combination. But the factory loaded ammunition in .30-06 achieves over 4000 fps, according to Remington factory ballistics tables.

[TwoRivers]

Fowad: Sierra makes a 240 grain .308 bullet, but it requires an 8" twist. The standard 10" twist will not stabilize it. It is not loaded in any factory ammunition. Nominal muzzle velocity for the 220 grain .30-06 load is 2410 fps, not 2700. That's the muzzle velocity for the 180 grain load. Cheers.

[Timnorris]

In my opinion .308 Win or the .30-06 Spring ............also if .223 is Introduced in India though a small round it would do great...........

[Mack The Knife]

The 375 isn't a medium bore, as it is the minimum caliber for shooting elephants and such in Africa.

Not sure I would agree with that, Mark. What determines a medium bore - calibre or bullet weight? In the case of the .375 H&H, I would say it is borderline with a slight lean towards medium bore.

Incidentally, I just happened to be reading an old article last night and Ganyana considers the .375 H&H as a medium bore.

My list of medium bores that one should consider buying at this point of time in India would be the same as penpusher's but not necessarily in that order. Since ammo in all the first four mentioned calibres is available, I would put more emphasis on buying a rifle in good condition. A rifle in .375 H&H is definitely worth considering if it is in good condition. The only problem is the cost of the ammo.

[z375]

A rifle in .375 H&H is definitely worth considering if it is in good condition. The only problem is the cost of the ammo.

I'll second that, Rusty!

-- Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:05 pm --

Walter ''Karamojo'' Bell reputedly shot qiute a few elephants with his 6.5X54 Mannlicher-Shoenauer and later with his .275 Rigby. Having said that,I would take a minimum .416 Rigby against an elephant if I must take upon.

and with good reason

[penpusher]

I believe that .375 H&H Mag is the minimum calibre in some African countries for taking dangerous game, hence it's inclusion in the big bores

[Mack The Knife]

I believe that .375 H&H Mag is the minimum calibre in some African countries for taking dangerous game, hence it's inclusion in the big bores

The .375 H&H and/or 9.3x62 are indeed the minimum calibres for DG in Africa but should that be the defining criteria or calibre and/or bullet weight? It would be interesting to read how the gun industry defines a big bore.

Incidentally, when H&H initially built rifles chambered for the .375 H&H they built them on standard length Mauser actions as Rigby had the monopoly on magnum actions.

[penpusher]

The .375 H&H and/or 9.3x62 are indeed the minimum calibres for DG in Africa but should that be the defining criteria or calibre and/or bullet weight? It would be interesting to read how the gun industry defines a big bore.

That would be interesting,if indeed there is or has been, any discussion on what constitutes a big bore.Perhaps it would be defined in terms of calibre+bullet weight+velocity.I am sure,for most,a .375 is on the borderline between medium and big bore.Anything larger than a .375H&H Magnum is definitely a big bore.

Incidentally, when H&H initially built rifles chambered for the .375 H&H they built them on standard length Mauser actions as Rigby had the monopoly on magnum actions.

The reason for the 404 Jeffery too,I believe.

[timmy]

.425 Westley Richards goes "all the way" in this matter of being used in a standard length Mauser action, as it is the same loaded overall length as .30-06.

When the cartridge runs much longer than ~3.3", the only place to remove material for a longer magazine opening in the bottom of the receiver is from behind the lower locking lug, which weakens the support in that area. In other words, longer cartridges can me made to work, but doing so makes a standard Mauser action somewhat weaker.

Additionally, the .425 Westley Richards also has the same .473" diameter bolt face recess, so shortening a military-length extractor and opening the bolt face recess of a standard (as opposed to a short magnum) M98 is possible.

The .425 Westley Richards is a rebated rim case, like the .284 Winchester, but even more extreme in the diameter of the case vs. the diameter of the rim than that round. It gains extra case capacity by being fairly fat, however, so it does have some dimensional considerations due to this regarding the magazine feeding.

[Mack The Knife]

Abhijeet,

If you are on a budget and want a value for money medium bore rifle why don't you get yourself a Bobby Sidhu custom IOF .315 or .30-06?

I really like that rifle he made for Vishosingh's uncle. If my Mauser wasn't on the special / collectable side I would most probably have sold it and asked Bobby to make me a custom special. Infact, somewhere down the line, if I get a very good offer for the Mauser that is most probably what I would do.

If I am up north this winter I wouldn't mind going over to his place to actually see atleast one of his custom rifles so that there is absolutely no doubt about the quality of his work.

Mack The Knife

[eljefe]

Seems like the medium Vs 'heavy medium' debate will not subside easy-and for good reason.i would agree with the 30-06 as medium for India. getting the 1980's vintage accellerator rounds would be akin to hen's teeth, and they didnt have very good things to say about them back in the '80's when they were introduced, except for the velocity.Seems the sabot separation was not consistent, so people were machining their own sabots, using materials right from Teflon to other synthetics.
With space age spin off's if things have improved, good.
A good old 150 gr mark 1 POF round at about 24-2500fps is enuff. 168 gr, 'non boatail' gave me some graet accuracy.
Yup, with a decent bedding and scope, should do it all.a step up from the 55gr ( abit extreme and not too popular) would be the 125gr-if still made. but unless you get them factory packed, would not recommend 'bullet switching' without rationalising the powder, per established manuals.

[Mack The Knife]

and they didnt have very good things to say about them back in the '80's when they were introduced, except for the velocity.

More of a bomb than a bullet with controlled expansion...was that the complaint?

Seems like the medium Vs 'heavy medium' debate will not subside easy-and for good reason.

Boddington and Taylor also consider it (.375 H&H) to be a medium bore. Taylor differentiated between the 'large bores' and 'large medium bores' and made the seperation at .450 calibre, if I recall correctly.

If there wasn't such a big difference in cost of ammo and I had a choice between the .30-06 and .375 H&H, I would opt for the latter or better still, both.