SxS Versus O/U

[17H]

Gentlemen, Just began picking up Shottys. I am confused as to go in for a SxS or O/U. Your views on relative merits of each type is requested.

Tried seraching the forum. There does not seem to be any discussion on this.

Regards

[mundaire]

In a gist...

SxS - Most popular for field use, they are lighter so easier to carry around all day... also a nicely crafted SxS double is probably one of the prettiest things around (not in skirts)

O/U - Most popular in competitions, they are not as pretty as the SxS (purely subjective) & are also heavier, but have a single sighting plane so are preferred by competition shooters.

HTH

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[R-Dhillon]

I would say that if you are buying an Indian made shotgun, go for an SxS...but if you are buying an imported one, it depends on what you'll be using it for. For self defense and field use SxS and for competitions an O/U...I have also noticed that for reloading a SxS, one doesnt need to break the barrel as much as for an O/U. I'm talking about the degree on bending the barrel with respect to the reciever.
Regards,
R.Dhillon.

[Biren]

Ajit,

Diff between two will be felt if one is using SxS or O/U and then shifts to other. Diff to a habitual user shifting to other type will be in recoil as well sighting plan. Rest as abhijeet wrote SxS is more suited for field use.

Cheers,
Biren

[marksman]

Mundaire,
Nothing to beat a Bespoke SXS but then again from a practical point of view, an O/U should be the choice. Its more readily available and cheaper compared to a (classy) European made SXS. I have shot both plenty and would like to own one of each if I were allowed to. It is believed that a SXS is much easier to load/unload when in a boat or a blind 'cause the break open angle is shallower then that of a O/U, but those days are over for India now. A good field grade O/U will serve well in both Trap and Skeet events to begin with. In fact I participated in the national Skeet event years ago with a heavy Browning Superposed 3" magnum(Mod.&full choke)with 30" barrel and fell short of Renowned Shot category by 2 overhead birds that I missed at station Eight.

Marksman

[catfish]

If God wanted us to shoot with an O/U he would have given us eyes to match it.

[BJL]

Hahaha, that is a great line.

Try a few rounds with each, that helps a lot more in deciding than others opinions. Whatever sighting plane best suits your shooting style should influence your decision.

[herb]

I personally like SxS, nothing like the elegant lines of a SxS but they are not suited for high volume shooting. Most SxS are boxlocks or sidelocks with multipe pins holding the action/side plates etc together which becomes loose after a few thousand rounds. A well made OU like a Beretta has the core action machined from a single block of high quality steel and have been known to shoot upward of 200000 rounds without a problem. I learnt it the hard way. I have a favorite Baikal SxS which I enjoyed hunting with, but then I started taking it out for skeet as I wanted to practice with my hunting gun, after a about 500-600 rounds the pins all came loose and the gun was a wreck.

So my take, for hunting use what ever suits you. For skeet (high volume i.e. a few thousand rounds a year) use a good O/U. Just my thoughts as I am not an expert....

Most dangerous game double rifles are SxS as it is easier to load both barrels in a hurry, a OU has to be opened more to get to the bottom barrel, but we are talking about shotguns here.

Some picture of my O/U & SxS....

You can see the pins holding the side plates and firing mechanism in the SxS...




O/U action has much less moving parts






Inside of a basic sidelock, this a 3 pin model with no intercepting sear, normally they are 5 or 7 pin with more moving parts...


Herb

[Steve007]

I am reluctant to correct a more active member than myself, but the previous poster is almost wholly in error.

First of all, most Over/Unders ARE boxlocks (or trigger plate actions), though there are some very fine Over/Unders that are sidelocks. Some example of sidelock O/U's are Boss, Purdey, Woodward, Famars, Beretta SO, Fabbri, Bosis, Bertuzzi and F.lli Rizzini, all high-dollar guns.

Secondly, attributing the sterling qualities of his Berreta to its barrel configuration is ludicrous. Beretta also makes fine SxS guns. His Baikal is a cheap Russian gun, built like a Russian tractor. Some hold up; other fall apart. Again, it's the gun, not the barrel configuration. In fact, the biggest disadvantage regarding a side by side is cost. Good ones are more expensive, and cheap ones like the Baikal handle poorly, but if you ever manage to own a good one and use it enough to really like it, then nothing else will do for upland game, IMHO.

For clays, many people think the single sighting plane of an O/U is more precise and as mentioned, they require less handwork and are thus less expensive than an equivalent SxS, though there are plenty of finely made O/Us around. SxSs are more stylish and most people think they are more attractive.

But which holds up best to high volume shooting is a matter of the quality of the gun, not the action. There is an enormous difference in basic quality between a Beretta and a Baikal. For that matter, the gun acclaimed as the most solid in the world, the famed Winchester model 21, is a side by side, to say nothing of the super-high-volume driven hunts by Brits, always shot wIth SxS.


My Arthur Allen SxS. Boxlock wth intercepting sears. Made in 1910 and still shooting up a storm at clays and birds. Scottish, DT, leather-covered recoil pad. Hit links. Picture too big to print here (for some reason).


http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=allen2.jpg

http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=allen3.jpg

[herb]

Steve007- I clearly mentioned in my post that it is just my take and I am no expert. Just my opinion based on my limited experience.

I know lot of people at my skeet club who have shot upwards of 75000 shots with their OU's, but don't know any one who have shot that many with a SxS. If you have shot that many with you Arthur Allan then it is indeed a very good gun, I am assuming it is fixed choke and 2 1/2 inch chamber. I know of some one who owns a vintage GE Lewis sidelock and swears it will outlast all our Beretta's, but he shoots skeet with his Beretta and never brings the GE Lewis for Skeet. I can understand his love and passion for his vintage SxS but unless he actually brings it for skeet and shoots regularly with it for a few years with it we will never know, as of now I am unwilling to just take his word for it only because during my years in India I have seen many Webley's & BSA's shot loose from normal hunting over many decades.

I can get a skeet capable OU shotgun for $1800 to $2000, can you provide me with the name of a good SxS for high volume shooting that is currently available new in the $1800 to $2000 price range. All I am trying to say that in the price range that most people can afford, mechanically the OU will be more suited for high volume shooting like skeet.

If you can afford a H&H, Purdey or even a Win 21 for regular skeet and are speaking from experience, good for you, but that was not the group of people I was having in mind.

The reason I mentioned Baikal is because even a used Baikal OU sells in India for $3000 to $4000. I have seen Arthur Allans selling on gunsamerica for $1000, so price is relative.


The SxS in pictures is a Brno & not the Baikal.

Herb

[Steve007]

Oh, man. Herb, the proper way to respond to being wrong is not by fabrication, misdirection and demonstrated lack of reading comprehension, but by saying you phrased yourself poorly. Or else to say you were wrong. Apparently, opinions vary.

If you tell me that a Soviet-made Baikal which sells for $ 3-500 in the US is subject to a 1000% tax in India,I cannot dispute it, though I surely doubt it. But to say that your Baikal fell apart under usage and therefore SxSs are not suited to higher volume is like saying the automatic transmission fell apart in your poorly-made car and therefore automatic transmissions are bad. You have never seen or heard of an Arthur Allen. Fine seller of upscale Birmingham boxlocks that went out of business in 1955 after 80 year in business, if it matters. The quality guns I mentioned were to reference sidelock O/U's, not S/Ss. You must have missed it.

Among new SxS's suited to clays shooting,of Italian manufacture you can't go wrong with a Fabarm Lion Classic. Shooting Sportsman Magazine saw the four underlugs,the wide action, and proclaimed it "built like a dreadnaught" and said it would never shoot loose. Mine only weighs 7# (30") but it soaks up recoil. Choke tubes accompany. Among Turkish guns, many like the CZ or Dehaan. Full warrantee, and you can get a fine one for those dollars.The Spanish-made Ugartechea is very well-regarded,and I wouldn't hesiate to buy one. All for less than what you quoted. My Browning BSS Sporter was my first gun, and it has digested untold thousands of heavy loads at skeet and birds (not smart, but it's what I did when I started) with nary a hiccup. There are many more choices."

It is hard to give credence to the fact that you've seen S/S guns made loose "over many decades" as indicative of anything, So what? Even my excellent 1959 Browning Superposed (a truly great gun) needed its action rebuilt recently and a few weeks I saw a Guerini Summit that--shockingly-- was so loose as to be dangerous. Guerini rebuilt at no charge. There are no great conclusions about over/unders to be drawn fron this.

I'm leaving tomorrow for a 3-day shooting Sporting Clays expedition. Probably 75 guys, and we'll burn 600-700 rounds. I happen to be taking two O/Us this trip ,but most of the guys will have SxSs, with quite a few Damascus barrels there. No problems are anticipated. A well-made and well-maintained gun is forever, regardless of how the barrels are stacked.

[herb]

Steve007 - As for your stating that I have never heard of a Arthur Allan, here is one for sale for $1295 on gunsamerica, nothing personal, just a fact so please don't accuse me of manipulating and fabricating the price.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/995420860/Gu ... Fowler.htm

If you doubt that a used Baikal OU in good condition costs $3000 to $4000 in India, I am sure other members can confirm that. Here is a link to a used Baikal for sale on this forum, the asking price INR 160000 ($3000+)

http://www.indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5937

As for the turkish and other SxS costing less than $1500 you mentioned being more suitable than a Beretta OU for high volume skeet, you can see tons of post on various forums where people have had problems with them even before shooting 1000 rounds.

Many people including myself feel that the Russian guns are built better than the low end turkish guns. The Stevens/Savage 311/411 was built by Baikal and many people thought it was a good working double build like a tank. But there is no reason why my opinion or any one else's should be more valid than yours or vice versa.

BSS is an excellent SxS but Browning discontinued it many years ago so no point in talking about it, so again my opinion is unless one have big bucks to spend, one is better off with a Beretta or Browning OU for skeet.

Nice to hear that people in your group regularly shoot high volume skeet with damascus barreled, fixed choke, double trigger vintage shotguns, but if I were shopping for a shotgun for skeet for around $2000 I would prefer a Beretta or Browning OU.

[Vikram]

To go back to the original topic, please check this link.Very relevant discussion on the very same topic.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtop ... 12&start=0


Herb/Steve,

In terms of durability boxlock or sidelock is irrelavant as build quality and engineering determine that. O/U or SXS, it's the quality again. In terms of economics, yes the O/U wins as $ for $ you get a better O/U for the same money than a SXS.But, it does not mean that a SXS is less durable than a O/U. JMO.

It's just a discussion and we all live and learn.


Best-
Vikram

[herb]

Vikram - Thanks for the excellent link, just an extract from the link you provided by "shotgunguru"

-------------------------
"
The OU has proven itself in the toughest test of all, target shooting. No SXS can stand that kind of brutal use. And yes I know of the two Boss guns used by Eley and which digested 1 million rounds etc. So far that endurance has not been duplicated on the target field.

The OU is one tough tool!

There is also the mechanical angle. The OU with is Blitz lock (firing mechanism on the trigger plate) offers simplicity, reliability, ease of regulation and safety, more so than the outdated V sprung actions of the sidelock and Ansond Deeley boxlock. And before any sidelock afficionados react, please think of the criterion of simplicity mentioned above.
"
--------------------------------

Herb

[Vikram]

Herb,

He is a man I came to respect for his genuine knowledge of shotguns and he knows his stuff and he is right to a great extent. However, as we discussed earlier, dollar for dollar or whatever denomination, you get a better O/U for the same money.Otherwise, there are quite a few SXS that will stand up for a lot of shooting.

Best-
Vikram