Win model 70 difference

[penpusher]

"From my cold dead hands" will have a new meaning altogether

Russian's seem to hunt bear with calibers that would be considered only marginal for the purpose.

[TwoRivers]

People make do with whatever is available. With a pack of dogs, or from a stand, and seldom alone. The majority of the time, their luck holds. But the Russians didn't come up with the 9x54R, or the 9x64 (both, incidentally 9.3mm) for shooting squirrels. Cheers.

[MoA]

TwoRivers: I would truly like to see a bear stand up to 20-30 7.62x39 slugs in under a minute, shot accurately enough into the center mass in under 1 minute. Hell you could even use a GSG-5 to put enough lead into a bear to bring it down.
I do own a Model 70, and am not impressed by it. I also own an Izmash amongst other things.
I also do have my preferences, and I do think I am entitled to them. More importantly I dont hunt bears.

I even know of a few people in your neck of the woods who use the Mosin to pretty much hunt everything from rabbits to Elk. Dont know if they hunt bear though... I could check if you wish.

[TwoRivers]

MoA: If you don't hunt bears, the why get involved in a discussion about what would make an adequate weapon, in a situation that's not in your favor? Yes, of course, one 7.62x39 mm slug, put in the right place, can kill a bear. As to delivering 20-30 round "accurately into the center of mass", good luck. You will never have the chance. I don't think you ever saw a bear move.
So you are not impressed with the M70? That's nothing to me. Get rid of it then. Every body is entitled to his beliefs, religion, foibles, belief that the sun revolves around the earth, whatever. Did any one ever say your weren't entitled to your preferences? Don't let them do that.
However, I would doubt that you know anyone in my neck of my woods who goes after bear with Mosin-Nagants, (and I don't mean black bear, although they too, do their share of damage). I'd really like to meet them. If that's all they have, of course they'd have to use it, but by choice?, with only ball ammunition available? Yeah, I'd really like to meet those fellows, who hunt "rabbits" (ain't got any), and everything else with their Mosin-Nagants. Yes, there is a 200 gr. soft point listed by importers, but try finding it here.
There's a master guide here who recommends to his clients a .300 Magnum with 180 grain bullets, when they ask what caliber rifle to buy for the hunt. But he does that because he does not want a client with a new big rifle he's afraid to shoot, and not thoroughly familiar with. And he backs them with a .500 Nitro Express double, not an AK-47, even though his double takes a beating in the wet brush and salty sea air. Maybe he knows something. Cheers.

[MoA]

Tworivers you have a PM with the details.

[eljefe]

Tworivers,MoA,
While I am not a votary of the spray and pray factor for game hunting, what I would like to add is, the AK47 has been reponsible for more elephants poached in Africa, than any other rifle made...what ever your belief about calibers,technique or ballistics, do continue, may this be an intresting post! had a bad experience with a pre 64 mod 70 in 375 Mag when I was all of 17-scope whupped me on my eyebrow and jaundiced me for life .I know the 375 is a fine cal, but 3 decades later, I would still spring for a double...

[MoA]

Eljeffe,

It really was a discussion about weapon reliability. And somehow the bears wandered in. As seems to be a theme while discussing anything rifle related.
I still stand by the fact, when you need absolute reliability, the AK platform outshines almost everything. I do not and really do not like the Win Mod 70 (despite owning one, which currently is for sale. Not in India) and dislike the crf in any weapon that is not either a K-98 or a Vz-24 type milsurp.
I am no proponent of spary and pray hunting either. But should I ever be caught in the woods, with only a lowly AK (7.62x39) I for one would not feel undergunned in any way.

Over the years smehow animals seem to have become tougher, and somhow everyone believes that unless you're shooting the latest and greatest Magnum or Ultra Magnum or some sort you're under gunned. (.375 these days is considered to be undergunned in some hunting circles btw).

[timmy]

MoA: About the Kalashnikov platform, there are also dragunovs and Romanian-made Dragunov lookalikes that are just big AKs chambered in 7.62x54r. (The Romanian Cigirs are not true Dragunovs, they just look similar to a real Dragunov. But they do shoot 7.62x54r.)

Furthermore, Graf & Sons, a very large ammo and reloading store in the USA, ships the 7.62x54r Barnaul 203gr soft point to all 50 US states and internationally -- the price is quite reasonable.

Incidentally, while some may turn their noses up at the lacquered steel cased Barnaul ammo, for competition I tried out a number of loads in my M39 Mosin Nagant. I found that this Barnaul load was more accurate than anything else I tried (handloads put one up to the next level of competition), much more accurate than the Sellier & Bellot 174gr Match Hollow Point Boat Tail loads, for instance. So the Barnaul load is what I use for this. I've talked to others who have had the same experience of the 203gr Barnaul being most accurate for them, and have heard that hunters have good results with this ammo.

That said, I do agree with you about the AK and am intending to work up some 154gr loads for my NHM 91 (20" barrel Chinese AK) for hunting.

AKs are pretty crude and rude, but they will go bang when you pull the trigger. The gas system is pretty "overpowered" for the work it has to do and I've put a buffer in mine. But the thing is pretty much going to cycle with authority, no matter what.

[MoA]

Timmy: very familliar with the Dragunov/Tigre/Cuigr platform. Had a Tigre for a short while. Too long compared to an AK and too inaccurate for my target shooting needs. Fun weapon never the less.

I will give the Branaul a spin once I finish going through the Wolf on hand.
Will check Garf out, though I doubt if they ship to Europe.

[eljefe]

Point taken MoA,
cant compare the AK platfom to a bolt, and the old military adage of 'maintain firepower superiority' holds good each and every time.I have seen documentaries and read of the Inuit in Alaska and canada, using 22LR & .222 for caribou and Polar bear.
I would primarily consider my own adapability to a scenario-Tworivers quote of the outdoors guide asking his clients (most may be desk bound corporate types on a hunt of a lifetime??) to get a 300mag with 180grn sounds par for the course...if I was a regular, going on a paid safari, i would not be asking my guide WHICH caliber to get for that class of game, but to quote one of my fav authors, I would prefer to '...use enough gun'
As for the super magnums and 'battle phasers' currently in vogue, IMO how many of these actually get used in a real DG situation? a two bore ? a 460 handgun? the videos are scary.

[TwoRivers]

Eljefe: Taking swimming caribou with the .22 Rf from a boat is still (or rather, again) legal in two of our Alaskan game management units. With a KGB style shot in the head. Traditionally, they were speared. Rimfires are otherwise prohibited for the taking of big game.
Since the Inuit had little cash, and seal was the primary game, small calibers were widely preferred, down to the .22 Hornet. But these guys were HUNTERS, and hunted wide open country, and with a team of dogs. With increasing affluence, you don't see the small caliber cartridges any more, except in young hands. Yes, it can be done. I have seen 26 shots from a .222, plus 27 shots from a .223 do in a smallish grizzly. Took about half an hour. And I dug a .22 RF Short (or Long) bullet out of the palate of a polar bear. So I would advice "not to try that at home".
The missed point in my quote above, is that the GUIDE carries a .500 Nitro. Not an (A)K-47. Cheers.