legal possibility for arms import?

The legal aspects of owning, shooting, importing arms/ ammo and other related legal aspects as well as any other legal queries. Please note: This INCLUDES all arms licensing issues/ queries!
penpusher

Re: Challenging the Arms Import Ban

Post by penpusher » Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:01 pm

Laws are made and amended in the Parliament and not in a court room.The Indian Parliament is not a sovereign body.The Right of Judicial Review acts as a check on the hasty or defective legislation.However it can't be used as a means to pass a law.No court has done it and none ever will.Checks and balances are part of the Indian constitution but so is separation of powers.I don't see any court over stepping it's boundaries and usurping the role assigned to a duly elected parliament.

More over,what we are talking about here is only a review of govt. policy.All that is required is notification and the ban on import of firearms will be lifted.At the same time,we should remember,that it can be re-enforced at a later stage.

What is required is a review of the current policy that grants a monopoly to the Indian Ordnance Factory Board to manufacture firearms with rifle barrels for sale in the civilian market.Any monopoly leads to shoddy products,scarcity and inflated prices. If reliable firearms and quality ammo are manufactured in India,I would not be interested in buying anything from abroad,even if it were possible.

Any one interested in a PIL to ask the govt.

i) to make the IOFB pull up it's socks and improve it's products and lower their prices.

ii)for the govt. to end IOFB's monopoly in the civilian mkt

iii)to ensure that the manufacturers of SBBL/DBBL guns manufacture to a certain level of quality in material and reliability.

iv) to open up a gunsmiths school to ensure that those who have a license to repair firearms know what they are doing rather than convert sound firearms into potential handgrenades

v) to end arbitrariness in matters of denying a license by clearly defining what all constitutes a ground/s for doing so.

Any one :?:

PS-Going by the Indian Arms Act,none of the American made firearms can be sold in the country as they have not been subjected to any proof :wink:

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Re: Challenging the Arms Import Ban

Post by nagarifle » Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:36 pm

well said penpusher
what's the point in taking anyone to court unless a clear cut picture has emerged as to who is responsible. court can not change the law.

its a more of a political issue then a legal one.
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if you say it can not be done, then you are right, for you, it can not be done.

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Re: Challenging the Arms Import Ban

Post by eternalme » Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:20 am

:-)
I think we should take all the PIL through GIF or IFG, that way it will be easy to keep track.
Because if its on behalf of IFG, all the members will be an active party and money and persual will not be a problem.
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Re: Challenging the Arms Import Ban

Post by Olly » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:34 am

I think a well deserved debate on Penpusher's arguments will serve as a first step. His views have lot of substance and unless there is unanimity and faith in the argument, there is no point approaching anyone. A list of agenda points to be raised is required which can be put up in this thread itself and added further to the points already mentioned by Penpusher. Later a competent lawyer can go thru them and arrive at a final decision on what can be done...

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Re: Challenging the Arms Import Ban

Post by nagarifle » Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:55 pm

i agree with olly, that we need to get our facts right, no point in going to court with a lost case.

the points to look at and research would be what was the last orders which brought on the ban,
who made the ban
how can it be remove
who can remove it
how many MP do we have in our favour
do we have public support
what benefit will the government have ie income wise,

we need to show that law abiding legally owned guns do not committed robbery's etc (might help as there will many using this against us)

thats where the members of the forum can help by getting info.

as always money will be needed.
Nagarifle

if you say it can not be done, then you are right, for you, it can not be done.

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Re: Challenging the Arms Import Ban

Post by amk » Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:02 pm

Olly wrote:Today's TOI has a news item which airs the Supreme Court's views - "Arming common men will create a dangerous situation... unless legal powers are vested.." This is mentioned in context to the Naxals problem in Chhattisgarh.

I wonder what is the implication in the larger context of RKBA !
This was in relation to arming and forming the armed civilian group/s in east india (the name I forget, Linga, Lingua?) and the excesses committed by them. I agree the judgment does not bode well for RKBA policies.

AMK

Edit: Sorry, this is not a actually a judgment.

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Re: Challenging the Arms Import Ban

Post by penpusher » Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:23 pm

Salwa Judum in Chhattisghar

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Re: Challenging the Arms Import Ban

Post by nagarifle » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:12 pm

this does not relates to RKBA. does it? as from my understanding is that the government formed groups is not the same as individuals RKBA. so any judgement of any type is related to government formed group, wither civilians or service. should have no relation.
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Re: Challenging the Arms Import Ban

Post by amk » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:25 pm

nagarifle wrote:this does not relates to RKBA. does it? as from my understanding is that the government formed groups is not the same as individuals RKBA. so any judgement of any type is related to government formed group, wither civilians or service. should have no relation.
Don't really know, I think we can only comment on it after reading the view in its entirety.

Thanks Penpusher.

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Re: Challenging the Arms Import Ban

Post by casual shooter » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:17 pm

this is not an act ,its an executive instructin, no bill as per my knowledge, was ever introduced in the parliament for banning the imoprt of firearms in this country.
banning of arms import was an cabinet decesion and not a act by parliament.
the govt merely ratifys the EXIM policy every year. but every thing is ratified for a year not as an act of parliament.
govt has by that decesion, put the import of firearms in the restricted list of goods
many things in the past were in the restricted list but in due cource they were removed by extensive lobbying by the industry no one lobbied for the removal of firearms only a small relaxation was given for imprt via TR.
if this can be proved in the court that this ban is not achieving its primary objective i.e.
1 reducing the pool of weapons( contraray action done by govt by allowing OFB to market civilian weapons)
2 reducing the crime rate( Most of the crime done by non registered weapons than those done in 1984)
being a consumer forced to buy lower quality weapons at higher price beacuse restrictied trade practice.
one arm of the government ( Commerce min.) is working to obtain objective 1,2 the other arm (Min of def production) is working to the contrary and enjoying the benefit.

shahid

Re: Challenging the Arms Import Ban

Post by shahid » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:32 pm

We have over 40 MPs who will support us 100 % as they are our friends.
We would through these 40 get a recruiting drive organised to get more MPs from Cong I, SP, CPI, CPM and our own Bihar's RJD to support the bill. The NCP party chief from Bihar will take up with his Maharashtra counterparts.
We have at least 3 in the BSP as well who will support and get their party whip to support, but their party boss; whims and fancies are doubtful.

Besides we have another 20 in the Rajya Sabha as friends and they too will recruit more.

As 1st step.

Someone open the book and post the 1984 ordnance banning the import of firearms for civilian use here to enable me to take it up further.

We have a battery of class 1 lawers as our friends who will take up the case for us in the Supreme court or high court.

If you all are serious on this act fast before elections are announced. Last date for all action is March 15.
Last edited by shahid on Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Challenging the Arms Import Ban

Post by TenX » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:34 pm

Penpusher and Casual Shooter should lead this.. Excellent points, and very noteworthy indeed!
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Re: Challenging the Arms Import Ban

Post by nagarifle » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:50 pm

casual shooter, shahid

now that is what we need, a framework of things needed and good friends to support us.

As casual shooter made good points to which we should pay more attention to.

many in the past have jumped to the conclusion that going to court is what is needed, yes but not in the way people have thought of, now with all your notes on the subject we can drew a plan of action, still its early days yet and lots of work and money is needed.

this is where if someone can geather all the facts and keep it in one post for all to see. As shifting through all the treads etc is time wasted. A thread just for keep the facts/ acts/ order would be wise. what says the mods?
Nagarifle

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Re: Challenging the Arms Import Ban

Post by casual shooter » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:36 pm

Leadership can only be assumed by some one living in Delhi.or near by
As far as i know Rahul Gandhi himself is a gun lover and was hurt as a child palying with a harpoon in his family swimming pool.
First it has to be RTI applicaton to know about the facts and reasons for the ban in 1984.
Then only an petetion can be drafted for the high court. against these figures some unconfirmed reports also suggested that this ban was initially for a period of 10 years.

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Re: Challenging the Arms Import Ban

Post by casual shooter » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:09 pm

Dated 5.1.88
Ministry of Finance
(Department of Revenue)
New Delhi
Disposal of fire arms imported in baggage upto 31-1-1987 and those imported under Transfer of Residence.
Attention is invited to Ministry’s letter bearing F.No. 495/106/86-Cus.VI, dated 12-8-1987, and Telex messages dated 13-8-1987 and 8-9-1987 regarding disposal of fire arms imported in baggage upto 31-1-1987 and those imported under Transfer of Residence etc.

2. The transitional problems arising out of sudden imposition of ban on the imported of fire arms in baggage or as gift and the delay in communicating the decision regarding this prohibition to the concerned authorities, particularly, our Missions abroad, had been under consideration of the Government. Having regard to these transitional problems and at the same time keeping in view the need to eliminate profiteering by unscrupulous elements, on account of high co-premium commanded by weapons of foreign make in the Indian market, Government have decided -

(1)
to regularize all import made up to 31-1-1987 (except those which were already confiscated and disposed of by the customs authorities) subject to the condition that such fire arms shall not be transferred to any person in India during the life-time of the licensees for consideration or otherwise;




(2)
to permit persons bringing their personal effects under the Transfer of Residence Rules, 1978 to import one fire arm which was in their possession for a minimum period of one year subject to the condition that such fire arm shall not be transferred to any person in India during their life-time for consideration or otherwise; and




(3)
to permit import of sporting weapons for target practice by rifle Clubs/Associations recognized by Central/State Government or their members, on the basis or specific recommendations of the Department of Youth Affairs and Sports.


3. So far as decision at (3) above is concerned, CCI & E would make suitable provision in the Import policy permitting the import of sporting weapons for target practice by Rifle Clubs/Associations.

4. So far as import of fire arms made in baggage including unaccompanied baggage up to 31-1-1987 are concerned you may now release the detained fire arms. A condition may, however, be put in the Arms Licence of the importer concerned that the fire arm shall not be transferred to any person in India during the life time of the licensee for consideration or otherwise.

5. So far as imports under Transfer of Residence Rule are concerned, a similar condition may also be endorsed in the Arms Licence of the passenger concerned. Necessary action is being taken to carry out appropriate amendment in the Baggage (Conditions of Exemption) Rules, 1986 to provide for a condition to the above effect. Having regard to the sensitive nature of the item, you are requested to ensure that transfer of residence facilities in respect of import of a fire-arm are permitted only in those cases where proof of possession for a period of one year by way of a possession license or an Arms Licence, wherever required, in the country of residence abroad is invariably insisted upon besides the purchase vouchers to establish the period of ownership. If there are genuine doubts regarding the ownership and possession of the fire arm for a minimum period of one year abroad, the concessions under the T.R. Rules should be denied and fire arms so imported, confiscated absolutely. You may also ensure that fire arms imported under T.R. Rules are allowed clearance only at the level of Asstt. Collector of Customs after due verification since personal fire arms are not permitted for possession in many countries, particularly, by persons who are not nationals of that


the communication was sent by the min of finance wide letter no mentioned above .

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