Go to http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_re ... 1_defense/
if you want the accompanying graphics and the complete article.
=======================================================
When my older brother, an engineer in the firearms industry and an ardent shooter, is pressed to name his favorite type of handgun, he is fond of saying, "For the first six shots, the revolver is the best handgun in the world!" Maybe it has something to do with heredity because I will freely admit to having a soft spot in my heart for the round gun. To me, the semiautomatic pistol hasn't been built that displays quite the same level of ergonomics and "pointability" of a quality, medium-frame revolver. And the smooth, rolling stroke of a finely tuned double-action revolver trigger is one of life's great pleasures. But before I am accused of waxing too eloquently in favor of the revolver, let me come to the defense of the autoloader. As with my revolvers, I own quite a few pistols and use them for both competition and daily carry.
Today semiautomatic pistols account for the majority of handguns sold for police service, defensive purposes, and competitive shooting. But the revolver continues to hold a significant share of the market, and sales of small, snub-nosed revolvers intended for concealed carry remain very strong. The round gun also dominates the hunting and silhouette shooting markets, and as action shooting organizations such as ICORE, USPSA, and IDPA revive revolver classes in their matches, it is experiencing new acceptance among competition-minded shooters.....
[Rottlord dont post the complete article, a link is good enough or try to summarize the points. Its saves us space on the database and other system overheads. - Moderator]
Best For Defense--Revolvers Or Auto Pistols?
-
Rottmeister
- One of Us (Nirvana)
- Posts: 364
- Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:14 pm
- Location: Kolkata
- Contact:
Best For Defense--Revolvers Or Auto Pistols?
The clash of honor calls -
To stand, when others fall.
To stand, when others fall.
-
timmy
- Old Timer
- Posts: 3029
- Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:03 am
- Location: home on the range
Re: Best For Defense--Revolvers Or Auto Pistols?
Personal preference seems to have a significant place here.
For one thing, different people shoot different weapons better than others. This could be a matter of ergonomics or even just a perception. But confidence plays a part here, too.
For myself, my 1911 is THE weapon of choice, hands down. I see a semi-auto as being an improvement over a revolver. However, this is not the whole story at all. For one thing, my 1911 would not be something I'd care to loose, or give up, so I'm usually loath to carry it.
While I do "believe" semi-autos, I feel that there's more to the subject than that. For instance, the 1911 is a single action weapon. It can be carried "cocked and locked," but I can't seem to trust any sort of mechanical safety that depends on the strength of the sear and a small notch in the hammer. This isn't a problem with the 1911's inertia firing pin, as a round can be safely carried in the chamber and thumbing the hammer back is all that's needed to bring the 1911 into action.
This is not the case with other semi-auto designs, however.
I have a Norinco M213, which is the Soviet TT33 adapted to use 9mm and made in China. This is a sturdy weapon that uses the Browning short-recoil system of the 1911, but is about the size of the old Colt pocket model in .32 ACP or 380 ACP. It is flat and small and easily concealed.
However, it is not safe and I don't consider it to be practical as a carry weapon. The original didn't even have a safety (no big deal) and the Norinco is fitted with a hokey version that works backwards: you should have to push it with your thumb to ready it, rather than pull the clumsy thing back.
I for sure don't trust carrying the thing cocked and locked and at least one foolish person has died trusting the half-cock notch, which predictably broke when he dropped the weapon and the half-cock notch broke on impact.
The weapon can't be carried with a round in the chamber because the firing pin is not of the inertia type.
So, the only way to really carry the thing safely is to leave the chamber empty, requiring one to work the slide to put a round in the chamber. This is not acceptable to me as a carry weapon.
Besides this, the TT33/M213 is very heavy. Very little care is taken to remove unneeded metal. The trigger and hammer are clumsy, because the design for use in the military is based on a sear - hammer assembly that can be easily replaced for field repair. The mainspring is a very heavy and short coil spring, making cocking the action manually an awkward process. (This design has the advantage of putting part of the magazine feed lips on the hammer -sear block assembly, which is a good thing.)
I have a Czech CZ52. This is a large pistol in 7.62 x 25 mm Tokarev. I like the round, because in these days in the USA, there is a lot of road rage and the 7.62 x 25 will penetrate auto bodies pretty reliably due to its high velocity. It is single action, but very safe, because it has a hammer block like a double action revolver and also a trigger operated firing pin block.
However, there are lots of little parts to the thing and I do wonder about the reliability of the thing.
Also, like the TT33/M213 design, the grip is nearly at a 90* angle to the barrel and the natural pointing tendency is to shoot the pistol low. One can, of course, practice, but it makes me wonder just how much practice is required to compensate for this design flaw.
Another semi-auto I have is a Czech CZ50. This pistol looks a lot like a Walther PPK and is in 32 ACP. It is very small and concealable. I carry it in a camera bag and keep my camera in the film pocket, hanging the thing around my neck. It works quite well.
32 ACP is often viewed as lacking enough power to "get the job done." This has something to it, I think, and it sure won't go thru car doors and windows like a more powerful round will, much less penetrate a body, especially if it encounters bone.
I try to compensate by loading ball (FMJ) rounds with Cor-Bon expanding rounds. I wonder whether even the Cor-Bon will actually expand, but I've read some tests that seem to indicate that one might hope that it will.
The CZ50 is a double action semi-auto and is quite safe, I think. It has great ergonomics and points well.
The other problem with this weapon is the same thing that makes me feel unsure of most semi-autos: When I got it, it did not feed correctly and would often jam. This makes the weapon useless as a carry weapon.
The problem was the magazine spring, which had lost too much tension. I bought replacements from Wolff Gunsprings, which is the company for those problems here in the USA. They sell them in a 3-pack, so I got a set for both magazines that came with the pistol. I'm looking for a 3rd magazine, which I wanted anyway.
I always leave the magazines unloaded, except when I'm on a trip. I admit, I wonder whether there will be a problem the minute I can lease afford one.
On the other hand, my Colt Detective Special in .38 Special does not have that problem. It is never unloaded and I never have to worry about it. A revolver is awkward and in many ways, it is about the same size as my 1911, a much more powerful weapon. It is also quite a bit thicker, with the cylinder. Besides this, its shape is less easy to conceal, at least on my body.
Besides this, there are a lot of little pieces to wear in a DA revolver. However, in one that's in good shape and only sees occasional practice use like mine, I never feel as if I have to worry whether it is going to go "bang" when I need it to. It was awkward to handle with the factory stocks, but with a set of the Pachmayr neoprene replacements, it is quite nice for my hands.
In another post, someone had quoted a Charter Arms advertisement, listing the advantages of the revolver, one of which was that the person the weapon was aimed at could see the rounds in the cylinder. I don't think that this is any advantage at all, for these reasons: First, I don't know whether seeing rounds in the cylinder would matter to a person who was angry, on drugs, or drunk. I wouldn't care to find out, either. Second, if the thing is empty, it will be noticed as empty. In the case of a semi-auto, this would not be the case.
(BTW, I like the Pachmayr neoprene replacement grips a lot. I also have them on my 1911 and a copy set on my Colt Officer's Model 38 Special. They have the property of being "Sticky" without really feeling sticky. They cushion recoil a small amount, which isn't necessary for me, but is a nice little bonus.)
So, my summary is that first of all, you have to feel confident that the carry weapon is both trustworthy in operation and capable of the use to which it is going to be put. This confidence should not be based on just what looks good or is written up in a magazine or two, but should have some real basis on the range, at least.
But what works for me will probably not be the same as what works for others. I no longer have the means to go out and purchase a high-dollar weapon like a Glock or Sig, so I need to make do with what I have.
For one thing, different people shoot different weapons better than others. This could be a matter of ergonomics or even just a perception. But confidence plays a part here, too.
For myself, my 1911 is THE weapon of choice, hands down. I see a semi-auto as being an improvement over a revolver. However, this is not the whole story at all. For one thing, my 1911 would not be something I'd care to loose, or give up, so I'm usually loath to carry it.
While I do "believe" semi-autos, I feel that there's more to the subject than that. For instance, the 1911 is a single action weapon. It can be carried "cocked and locked," but I can't seem to trust any sort of mechanical safety that depends on the strength of the sear and a small notch in the hammer. This isn't a problem with the 1911's inertia firing pin, as a round can be safely carried in the chamber and thumbing the hammer back is all that's needed to bring the 1911 into action.
This is not the case with other semi-auto designs, however.
I have a Norinco M213, which is the Soviet TT33 adapted to use 9mm and made in China. This is a sturdy weapon that uses the Browning short-recoil system of the 1911, but is about the size of the old Colt pocket model in .32 ACP or 380 ACP. It is flat and small and easily concealed.
However, it is not safe and I don't consider it to be practical as a carry weapon. The original didn't even have a safety (no big deal) and the Norinco is fitted with a hokey version that works backwards: you should have to push it with your thumb to ready it, rather than pull the clumsy thing back.
I for sure don't trust carrying the thing cocked and locked and at least one foolish person has died trusting the half-cock notch, which predictably broke when he dropped the weapon and the half-cock notch broke on impact.
The weapon can't be carried with a round in the chamber because the firing pin is not of the inertia type.
So, the only way to really carry the thing safely is to leave the chamber empty, requiring one to work the slide to put a round in the chamber. This is not acceptable to me as a carry weapon.
Besides this, the TT33/M213 is very heavy. Very little care is taken to remove unneeded metal. The trigger and hammer are clumsy, because the design for use in the military is based on a sear - hammer assembly that can be easily replaced for field repair. The mainspring is a very heavy and short coil spring, making cocking the action manually an awkward process. (This design has the advantage of putting part of the magazine feed lips on the hammer -sear block assembly, which is a good thing.)
I have a Czech CZ52. This is a large pistol in 7.62 x 25 mm Tokarev. I like the round, because in these days in the USA, there is a lot of road rage and the 7.62 x 25 will penetrate auto bodies pretty reliably due to its high velocity. It is single action, but very safe, because it has a hammer block like a double action revolver and also a trigger operated firing pin block.
However, there are lots of little parts to the thing and I do wonder about the reliability of the thing.
Also, like the TT33/M213 design, the grip is nearly at a 90* angle to the barrel and the natural pointing tendency is to shoot the pistol low. One can, of course, practice, but it makes me wonder just how much practice is required to compensate for this design flaw.
Another semi-auto I have is a Czech CZ50. This pistol looks a lot like a Walther PPK and is in 32 ACP. It is very small and concealable. I carry it in a camera bag and keep my camera in the film pocket, hanging the thing around my neck. It works quite well.
32 ACP is often viewed as lacking enough power to "get the job done." This has something to it, I think, and it sure won't go thru car doors and windows like a more powerful round will, much less penetrate a body, especially if it encounters bone.
I try to compensate by loading ball (FMJ) rounds with Cor-Bon expanding rounds. I wonder whether even the Cor-Bon will actually expand, but I've read some tests that seem to indicate that one might hope that it will.
The CZ50 is a double action semi-auto and is quite safe, I think. It has great ergonomics and points well.
The other problem with this weapon is the same thing that makes me feel unsure of most semi-autos: When I got it, it did not feed correctly and would often jam. This makes the weapon useless as a carry weapon.
The problem was the magazine spring, which had lost too much tension. I bought replacements from Wolff Gunsprings, which is the company for those problems here in the USA. They sell them in a 3-pack, so I got a set for both magazines that came with the pistol. I'm looking for a 3rd magazine, which I wanted anyway.
I always leave the magazines unloaded, except when I'm on a trip. I admit, I wonder whether there will be a problem the minute I can lease afford one.
On the other hand, my Colt Detective Special in .38 Special does not have that problem. It is never unloaded and I never have to worry about it. A revolver is awkward and in many ways, it is about the same size as my 1911, a much more powerful weapon. It is also quite a bit thicker, with the cylinder. Besides this, its shape is less easy to conceal, at least on my body.
Besides this, there are a lot of little pieces to wear in a DA revolver. However, in one that's in good shape and only sees occasional practice use like mine, I never feel as if I have to worry whether it is going to go "bang" when I need it to. It was awkward to handle with the factory stocks, but with a set of the Pachmayr neoprene replacements, it is quite nice for my hands.
In another post, someone had quoted a Charter Arms advertisement, listing the advantages of the revolver, one of which was that the person the weapon was aimed at could see the rounds in the cylinder. I don't think that this is any advantage at all, for these reasons: First, I don't know whether seeing rounds in the cylinder would matter to a person who was angry, on drugs, or drunk. I wouldn't care to find out, either. Second, if the thing is empty, it will be noticed as empty. In the case of a semi-auto, this would not be the case.
(BTW, I like the Pachmayr neoprene replacement grips a lot. I also have them on my 1911 and a copy set on my Colt Officer's Model 38 Special. They have the property of being "Sticky" without really feeling sticky. They cushion recoil a small amount, which isn't necessary for me, but is a nice little bonus.)
So, my summary is that first of all, you have to feel confident that the carry weapon is both trustworthy in operation and capable of the use to which it is going to be put. This confidence should not be based on just what looks good or is written up in a magazine or two, but should have some real basis on the range, at least.
But what works for me will probably not be the same as what works for others. I no longer have the means to go out and purchase a high-dollar weapon like a Glock or Sig, so I need to make do with what I have.
-
cottage cheese
- Veteran
- Posts: 1427
- Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:15 am
- Location: Shillong-Dimapur
Re: Best For Defense--Revolvers Or Auto Pistols?
You should consult a gentleman by the name of VJha....
He who can not think, is a fool; he who will not, a bigot; he who dare not - a slave!
-
badshah0522
- Shooting true
- Posts: 783
- Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:14 pm
- Location: Qatar
-
cottage cheese
- Veteran
- Posts: 1427
- Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:15 am
- Location: Shillong-Dimapur
-
The Doc
- Veteran
- Posts: 1253
- Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:25 am
- Location: India.
vjha55 indeed was a great source of entertainment !! His posts have been trashed now since he is banned but one can read the "quote" window to get an idea. Oh, by the way in addition to the pistol/revolver debate he also was an authority on the "cheeku look" that some guys have. His deliberations with Grumpy were hilarious !!.cottage cheese";p="63018 wrote: When it comes to the pistol/revolver question, he's the man!
http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?t=3185
http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?t=3352
cheers,
RP.
It's always better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it !
-
penpusher
Re: Best For Defense--Revolvers Or Auto Pistols?
Rottlord,
Pay heed to the advise of one of the moderators.These sort of copy-paste posts are tedious.While your enthusiasm is commendable,this would concern only some one who would be in the market to buy a handgun.Since you are not,what is the point?
Pay heed to the advise of one of the moderators.These sort of copy-paste posts are tedious.While your enthusiasm is commendable,this would concern only some one who would be in the market to buy a handgun.Since you are not,what is the point?
-
Rottmeister
- One of Us (Nirvana)
- Posts: 364
- Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:14 pm
- Location: Kolkata
- Contact:
Re: Best For Defense--Revolvers Or Auto Pistols?
You are right penpusher, but then again, I would advise you to give up on your - "If it's not about me, it's useless" attitude.
The clash of honor calls -
To stand, when others fall.
To stand, when others fall.
-
casual shooter
- Almost at nirvana
- Posts: 233
- Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:31 pm
- Location: nasik maharashtra
read all the contents
well for me all this is crap. we in india are forced to think of a choice between antiqued 40-50 year old weapons or of substandard iof products,
whether one prefers a norinco colt smith or walther is of no use to me it unnecessarly increases a level of helplessness in my being.
i was going through the walther usa site the price of ppk new is 571 dollars well in india we pay 16000 dollars for 40-50 year old probably DONEUP gun !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
well for me all this is crap. we in india are forced to think of a choice between antiqued 40-50 year old weapons or of substandard iof products,
whether one prefers a norinco colt smith or walther is of no use to me it unnecessarly increases a level of helplessness in my being.
i was going through the walther usa site the price of ppk new is 571 dollars well in india we pay 16000 dollars for 40-50 year old probably DONEUP gun !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
-
Rottmeister
- One of Us (Nirvana)
- Posts: 364
- Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:14 pm
- Location: Kolkata
- Contact:
Re: Best For Defense--Revolvers Or Auto Pistols?
Casual Shooter,
This is because there is a lack of general awareness on guns; on your next visit to a local toy store, watch the reactions of any parent if their kid wants a toy gun. But there are measures being taken to spread awareness; please consult Mr. Grewal or Vikram for further info.
P.S. We were 5 close-knit friends until a couple of months back; now, there's only one (a defence personnel and a gun enthusiast)who's keeping company. You shall laugh out if I mention here that the rest three severed connections so that they don't get marked as anti-socials for openly discussing guns on the internet. That's the average bengali population.
This is because there is a lack of general awareness on guns; on your next visit to a local toy store, watch the reactions of any parent if their kid wants a toy gun. But there are measures being taken to spread awareness; please consult Mr. Grewal or Vikram for further info.
P.S. We were 5 close-knit friends until a couple of months back; now, there's only one (a defence personnel and a gun enthusiast)who's keeping company. You shall laugh out if I mention here that the rest three severed connections so that they don't get marked as anti-socials for openly discussing guns on the internet. That's the average bengali population.
The clash of honor calls -
To stand, when others fall.
To stand, when others fall.
-
timmy
- Old Timer
- Posts: 3029
- Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:03 am
- Location: home on the range
Re: Best For Defense--Revolvers Or Auto Pistols?
Casual Shooter:
I see your point in a clearer focus and will moderate my prattle in the future, in an attempt to be a bit more relevant to the subject at hand.
Regards,
tim
I reread your post a few times and checked out the two threads that Cottage Cheese recommended, along with some other information.well for me all this is crap. we in india are forced to think of a choice between antiqued 40-50 year old weapons or of substandard iof products, whether one prefers a norinco colt smith or walther is of no use to me it unnecessarly increases a level of helplessness in my being.
i was going through the walther usa site the price of ppk new is 571 dollars well in india we pay 16000 dollars for 40-50 year old probably DONEUP gun
I see your point in a clearer focus and will moderate my prattle in the future, in an attempt to be a bit more relevant to the subject at hand.
Regards,
tim
-
penpusher
Re: Best For Defense--Revolvers Or Auto Pistols?
No need for that.You were merely narrating in your context and there are many things that are similar though the choice of firearms may be limited.timmy";p="63086 wrote: I reread your post a few times and checked out the two threads that Cottage Cheese recommended, along with some other information.
I see your point in a clearer focus and will moderate my prattle in the future, in an attempt to be a bit more relevant to the subject at hand.
Regards,
tim
There are people I know of, who carry a 1911 .45 or a .30 Tok. or a Walther P38 or even a Luger or broom handle 7.63 Mauser.So feel free to post what you like,we will certainly gain from it and apply what is relevant to us.
-
Vikram
- We post a lot
- Posts: 5108
- Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:14 am
- Location: Tbilisi,Georgia
timmy";p="63086 wrote: Casual Shooter:
I reread your post a few times and checked out the two threads that Cottage Cheese recommended, along with some other information.well for me all this is crap. we in india are forced to think of a choice between antiqued 40-50 year old weapons or of substandard iof products, whether one prefers a norinco colt smith or walther is of no use to me it unnecessarly increases a level of helplessness in my being.
i was going through the walther usa site the price of ppk new is 571 dollars well in india we pay 16000 dollars for 40-50 year old probably DONEUP gun
I see your point in a clearer focus and will moderate my prattle in the future, in an attempt to be a bit more relevant to the subject at hand.
Regards,
tim
Hi Timmy,
That was Casual Shooter's opinion.I found your hands on experiences very informative and interesting if not useful.Thanks for sharing them and I look forward to more from you.
Best-
Vikram
It ain’t over ’til it’s over! "Rocky,Rocky,Rocky....."
-
badshah0522
- Shooting true
- Posts: 783
- Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:14 pm
- Location: Qatar
Yesssssssssssssss !!!! I remember him..cottage cheese";p="63018 wrote:Oh When it comes to the pistol/revolver question, he's the man!badshah0522";p="63005 wrote:Why Why Why ????cottage cheese";p="63003 wrote: You should consult a gentleman by the name of VJha....
"Strength is not about how strong u can kick, it's about how strong the life is kicking u and u standup again to keep on going"
-
amit888_2000
- One of Us (Nirvana)
- Posts: 284
- Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:57 pm
- Location: New Delhi
- Contact:
Re: Best For Defense--Revolvers Or Auto Pistols?
well guys, if u ask me a pistol is far better than a revolver.......and if you can go for something expensive than pls go for a double action pistol.....