4-Bore Elephant Gun

[mehulkamdar]

All this american toys like 12 ga from hell and similar will never reach this new 14,5x114 russian or 20x110 Oelikon military sniper rifle's now in service again.

PWM my friend,

You have just given the big bore nuts in this country a new thing to think about.

Cheers!

Mehul

[Grumpy]

You think the big-bore nuts haven`t already noticed Mehul ? The only problem is finding a big enough action to accept those whopping cartridges - there being certain restrictions on the availability of the military actions.
Hoe long before somebody comes up with a 20x110 double ? ......... And then, no doubt, there will be the wildcat variations !

[eljefe]

Mehul/Grumpy,
I agree with all-it is 'maximum hotrodding' , talking about 2 bore doubles...not even a barmy brit in the throes of -africa-itis' in the 1890's would want to go thru this.I can understand a howdah pistol...given the time criticality involved in a charging tiger or something, and all one had was a 1/4 second draw!swat the cat anywhere and you should be saved from a whole mess of wounds in those non penicillin days.
But, the 12ga from hell and the 600, 700, 4 ga etc , IMHO only serve as 'technology demonstrators' about the tech levels mankind may achieve.
I dislocated my index and middle fingers in a rapid fire session with a 470, didnt notice till the end of the session , and couldnt get my finger out of the trigger guard easily...In another post, Jonah had mentioned about a hard kicking 303, which I found surprising, given my extensive experience with the smelly.
I fired an Ithaca 10ga semi and didnt find it uncomfortable.But, when i see/hear of stuff that must have belonged to someones version of Gotterdamerung, I kind of feel blown away. I am 85 kg and think I am comfortable with a 'normal' nitro double upto 500, I think!
Probably to do with practicalities and the frugality of being a double shooter in India...NOw the 50 BMG and the oerlikon 20mm as a shoulder fired antimaterials gun sound ok for a military application-an evolving process from the Boyes 55 of WWI, but for a sporter ?
let me crawl back under that slimy rock
Best
Axx

[mehulkamdar]

Grumpy,

The late Fred Wells, a good friend of our friend Ka'imiloa, built custom Mauser actions for the 50 BMG and 55 Boyes. Someone who saw one of those rifles told me that he asked Fred if he had built the rifle for a Texan. Fred smiled and asked him how he knew. Apparently it was so large that it loooked like it was made for someone who would be more than 8 feet tall. Fred's son Reuben now runs the business but there are other custom action makers like Waffenfabrik Hein who could build huge actions for virtually anything. And Ken OWen built the double rifle action for the 4 Bore Nitro that I posted the link to from scratch. Well, if someone wants to dislocate his/her shoulder (yes there are women who also like this kind of thing) It's their money and their shoulder.

Asif,

The 12 GAFH etc came in response to California's banning the 50 BMG and all derivatives from civilian ownership. The Commies in that state could not ban other rounds that had been grandfathered in and that was why shooters and ballistic designers like Rob Garnick and Ed Hubel designed a monster 12 Gaure brass cased gun that would shoot a 2000 grain bullet at 2400 fps, vastly more powerful than the 700 Nitro Express which shoots a "mere" 1000 grain bullet at 2000 fps. While I do admire the near "evil" intent behind the design (and, of course, I use "evil" in the most complimentary sense) I think there is always a point of diminishing returns when it comes to stuff like this. Those with the money and the intention to shoot these monsters are welcome to do what they want. I shall happily stay away.

Cheers!

Mehul

[Grumpy]

My data shows the standard .700 NE load as being a 1200 gr Bullet propelled at 1900 fps for 9618 ft lbs ME........ And I have no desire to shoot one.
Mehul, can you remember who the Victorian gent was who said that each time he fired his 2-Bore it spun him round twice ? I`m pretty sure that was in India.

[eljefe]

Mehul,
12gfh made fascinating reading.I didnt know the background about the 50 cal ban being the reason.hats off to Hubel and co for the 'technology demonstrator' he's probably started a cult thing about hot rodding a bolt shotgun...
Grumpy,
If that Victorian gentleman didnt connect with his first shot and the DG pressed home the charge/attack, inspite of the battle cruiser standard smoke screen, I guess the double pirouette helped in the SERE ?
Best
Axx

[mehulkamdar]

Grumpy,

Gun Digest lists the 1200 grain at 1900 fps load but that is a listing for the original, experimental version, I think. Holland and Holland finally standardised the 1000 at 2000 load and there have been more than a few hunters looking for the 1200 grain bullets recently as this link suggests. If I remember right, there were some penetration problems - or so some claimed - with the original 1200 grains at 1900 fps load.

The gentleman whom you talked about who wrote about his experience with the 2 bore was Samuel Baker who wrote about hs experience hunting elephants in Ceylon. The gun in question - he christened it "baby" is probably one of the most valuable collector pieces in the world and is currently on sale with it's current owner in South Africa. I remember a discussion on both Ar as well as the NE forums about this piece.

Asif,

While I do admire the irreverence of the gentlemen who designed the 12 GAFH, and Ed Hubel proved that the thing could be built on a Savage bolt action as a single shot if someone wanted to, I am not sure that the idea itself makes much sense. If you want to shoot an Elephant or Cape Buffalo, there are vastly better options that Californian law still allows. It is a good ego booster for someone who wants something horrendously powerful, but certainly not much more than that.

IMHO the point of a gun is that you should enjoy shooting it as much as possible - I doubt there is anyone who can do that with monsters like the 12 GAFH or even less with the bigger monsters like the 4 Bore Nitro Express.

Like your joke about the 2 bore spinning someone out of the way of dangerous game determined to kill him!

Cheers,

Mehul

[Grumpy]

You`ve lost me Asif.....too many initials. `DG` ? `SERE` ?
Maybe the double pirouette was a victory dance ? Striving for maximum distraction in the clouds of smoke ? However it just goes to show that the lunatic search for more power isn`t just a modern phenomenon.
Many hunters developed a major flinch after being exposed to the recoil of heavy calibre ( AH HA ! `DG` - `Dangerous Game`! I`m half way there ! ) rifles which either ruined their later shooting or forced them to use much lighter calibres. Bell was so sensitive to recoil that the largest calibre he would consider using was a .318 W-R and the vast majority of his game - including Elephants - was taken with a 6.5x54 M-S.

[Grumpy]

Thanks Mehul - I knew you wouldn`t let me down.
Yes, Baker and `Baby`..... in Ceylon.........Well I wasn`t too far away !
Now that bloke WAS a nutter ! What I find amazing about that is that `EVERY TIME` he fired the gun he was spun round twice and dumped on his backside - the man had more guts than sense ! Didn`t he also develope an almighty flinch as a result of using that 2-Bore ?

[mehulkamdar]

Grumpy,

I doubt if a flinch was the worst problem that Baby gave Sam Baker - in his later years he ended up with Parkinson's Syndrome and the story goes that his daughter had to lead him everywhere by the hand because he couldn't do aything by himself. Yes, he was one of the extreme nuts as far as this power out of a barrel game is concerned.

Very recently, there have been members on AR who have ended up with detached retinas, have required surgery on their necks and one member who broke his collar bone all because of the monsters that they chose to shoot. I guess there are some who think they are heroes because they have shot these monsters and got away without breaking or hurting anything in their bodies. Good for them! It probably makes them feel as if they have run the mile in three minutes.

Walter "Karamojo" Bell is a hunter I admire because of his superb marksmanship and field skills. And, yes, he was a perfect gentleman because he loved Mannlichers!

Mehul

[eljefe]

SERE-Survival, Escape, Resistance and Evasion-might not be in correct order but means the same.Spot on- the DG, no sweat grumpy.Thats why he wanted a 2 bore-connect anywhere and he had himself one dead elephant!failing which, the danse macabre must have helped there were no punji sticks in Ceylon then-"dashed inconvenient , falling on my b** and all that rot"
Have said it in an earlier post about the gent with a pinched nerve in the neck from too many heavy rifle rounds-all the game that can be shot has been-with a 7 mm;I stand corrected: 6.5x54
best
Axx

[eljefe]

Too true Mehul,
Any one who went after DG, in the thick jungles of Angola and was a commercial hunter and used a light rifle , must be a crack shot with supreme confidence in his abilities in placing the shot, under any circumstance.Surgical precision is the term that comes to mind...

[Grumpy]

Yeah, some of those old boys were a bit much - `Shot 20 Elepants this morning and then after a spot of tiffin and a pink gin or two despatched half a dozen Tiger including the local maneater` !!
Makes you wonder how there`s any wildlife left at all.
Walter Bell was acknowledged by his contemporaries as one of the best shots around....probably had to be using a little 6x5x54 M-S ! Those Elephant kills had to be brain shots and he didn`t often need a second shot. `Surgical precision` describes his abilities very well.
Both the 6.5s ( the 6.5x55 Swedish and the 6.5x54 M-S ) are superb hunting calibres......which is why I`ve got one !
Oh crumbs, here we go again ! - What`s a `Punji stick` ?

[eljefe]

Viet cong booby trap-sharpened bamboo stake smeared with human excreta for that fine feeling of sepsis...-used as a trap for the 'running dog capitalist yankee soldiers '
Many variations are available, some must have made it to modern ceylon with its ongoing 'troubles'
Many of them in a pit, covered with a camouflaged bamboo mat and the trauma surgeon as well as the chopper air evac crews have business.
Hey, I read in the papers about Nilgai coming in on the delhi airport runway a couple of months ago-any one for a couple of pink gins?;)

[eljefe]

'Nilgai' ok Grumpy?