What should one look for when buying a used shotgun.....

[Ranjeet Singh]

People invariably start shooting with chokes that are too tight - you`ll kill more with a barrel choked Cylinder than you`ll ever do with Full choke.

well, Grumpy is much more experienced than me and it has been a very informative post, While the statement is true in its absolute sense, but then I quite don't agree with this part of the post.

I am of the opinion (of course been taught and have learnt) that one can never be a good shotgun shooter if he uses Cyl barrels or a mod choke. You'll never know where you were pointing even when you chip the birds. It'll be hit and miss all the time..

If you start with full or extra full choke you will always know where you were pointing and then for competitions or game, you can shift to a full choke.

So the Multichokes are useful, if you have only one shotgun..



Regards
Ranjeet

[Grumpy]

Good point Mark - the sulphurous reek of cold blues is quite distictive and lasts for quite some time. It does dissipate eventually though.
Multichoking one barrel used to be quite common in Trap guns. The second barrel was left full choke and a multichoke fitted to the first.
I`m not a great fan of multichokes for the reasons previously given but there are times when they are useful - for instance when a gun has to be multi-purpose. An upland game gun choked 1/4 and 1/2 ( Improved and modified ) doesn`t have sufficiently tight chokes for Goose or Turkey hunting.
I`m no fan of `multi-purpose` guns either as they are always a compromise ( `Jack of all trades, master of none` ) but it is too easy to forget that not everyone - especially the majority of members of this forum - has easy access to a wide selection of ( comparitively ) inexpensive guns........Those same members are also very restricted as to the number of guns they can hold.

[Grumpy]

Ranjeet we`ll have to disagree as to to use of use of tight chokes - especially with their use in game guns where they are a liability. The only time tight chokes are of use in a game gun is when wildfowling - for Ducks and Geese - and for Turkey shooting. Both types of shooting are at longer than normal range and the tight chokes are necessary to allow for a significant pattern at those ranges. In the US the use of steel shot has necessitated ultra tight chokes because of the sheer ineffectiveness of steel shot. Turkey, it has has to be said, are tough old birds and take some stopping. With Driven Pheasant, Grouse and Partridge shooting one needs significantly looser chokes - 1/8 and 3/8 is usually more than adequate. I use slightly tighter chokes sometimes for Wood Pigeon and High Pheasant. Apart from anything else one wants to kill the bird - not turn it into an inedible sack of mush !
Tight chokes used to be `de rigeur` for Trap shooting but the improvement in cartridges - higher velocity, plastic wads,, harder shot - is responsible for much less tight chokes being used nowadays. Many World class Olympic Trap shooters now use 1/2 and 3/4 choke and I know of at least one who uses 1/2 and 1/2.
The idea that one doesn`t know where one is shooting with more open chokes is rubbish. The most significant improvement in patterning over Cylinder Choke is with the first application of minimal choke - say 1/8 choke. The improvement in patterning after that is progressively less significant.

[Ranjeet Singh]

Hi Grumpy,

your points are very well taken. I've never taken a shot at a live bird, but I can see what you mean by inedible mush...

I come from a trap shooting point of view, and that too from a early learning stage and am being told that its rather important to 'dust' the target or have a clean miss..while practising...

And also I have seen that most guys have 7 & 10 or 3/4 & full chokes..

But I agree that distance and type of job at hand should dictate the chokes.

And thanks for giving the examples..always good to learn..

Regards
Ranjeet

[Grumpy]

Ranjeet, one should always attempt to `kill` the clay ( or bird ) in the centre of the pattern. A clean miss tells you nothing about the placement of your shot unless you have a coach looking over your shoulder whereas a `chippy` kill gives you some idea of where you are shooting.
Ideally one should `dust` every clay - but a clean miss scores nothing whilst a `chippy` kill scores the same as dusting the clay.
The idea that one should use very tight chokes for Trap shooting practice has merit but is pretty old fashioned. Cartridges are so much better nowadays than they used to be that looser chokes are MUCH more common.
It should also be remembered that competive clay shooting has little in common with game shooting which is one of the reasons that the Sporting Clays disciplines were introduced. I find Trap of little use for practice of game shooting - Sporting Clays ( or even Skeet ) are much more useful.

[monty3006]

Grumpy, Mark,
Thanks a lot dudes.
thats very helpful.

[Kshatriya]

Most informative thread I have com across at IFG.
I have learnt a lot from it. Thanks, guys.

[Mark]

Grumpy, your "sack of inedible mush" is quite accurate.

I consider myself a rifle hunter primarily, learned by going out in the woods and hunting squirrels for the most part. For a while once I borrowed my younger brothers full choked 20 guage to see what hunting squirrels would be like and of course a body shot with a full choke just pulverizes them, it took me a while to learn to aim a bit over there heads and kill them that way.

[Ranjeet Singh]

Ranjeet, one should always attempt to `kill` the clay ( or bird ) in the centre of the pattern. A clean miss tells you nothing about the placement of your shot unless you have a coach looking over your shoulder whereas a `chippy` kill gives you some idea of where you are shooting.

Yeah true, normally I think people just try to make the practise a little more harder by using more constriction. and then open the chokes a little for competitions..so that you get the center of the pattern on the clay and get lucky as well, if you are a bit off:) by chipping

It should also be remembered that competitive clay shooting has little in common with game shooting which is one of the reasons that the Sporting Clays disciplines were introduced. I find Trap of little use for practice of game shooting - Sporting Clays ( or even Skeet ) are much more useful.

Couldn't be more true..in fact I found out that most pigeon shooters shoot with 20 or even 28 gauge shotguns....of course when you shoot 1000 shots a day, in Argentina perhaps, then 28 would be the ideal choice, no inedible mush...and no recoil..plain fun..

And I was of the opinion that Trap was to simulate, upland bird hunting which when flushed by Dog, or while you walk would fly away from you in various angles..of course you start with a pre-mounted position in trap...Is this completely incorrect?

Regards
Ranjeet

[Grumpy]

I know what you mean Mark - I`ve always thought that it would make more sense to use a .22lr ( or even .17HMR ) for Turkey. I detest finding even one shot when eating a bird.....let alone a load of them.
Ranjeet,`Trap` shooting developed from Live Pigeon shooting. You`ll often see British SxS guns described as `Pigeon` guns. That should be `Live Pigeon`. The guns are an early form of Trap gun with 30 or 32 inch barrels, tight chokes, greater weight ( in the range of 7 1/2 - 8 1/2 lbs ) and re-enforced actions - usually with a third bite and side bolsters. Many of them had 2 3/4" chambers. The birds were released from a trap - hence the name - which was placed downrange. Obviously the birds tended to fly away from the gun - necessitating the need for a steady gun with tight chokes. The gun was pre-mounted as with current trap shooting disciplines because whilst you wouldn`t know in which direction it was going to fly, you knew where it was going to be released from.
`Live Pigeon` shooting was banned in the UK during the early 1920s and the form of clay shooting which replaced it became known as `Trap`.
Most shooting for Pigeons in the UK is done with a 12-Bore, although the 20-Bore is becoming more and more popular for all types of game shooting in the UK. That`s because the Pigeons we shoot - Wood Pigeons - are large, fast flying birds. In the Argentine the birds are Doves, considerably smaller and the use of 20 or even 28-Bore guns is sensible.
Very large bags of Wood Pigeon are quite common in the UK - in East Anglia 1,000 plus birds have been taken by parties in a day. My personal ( solo ) record here in the West Country is just over 100 birds. You`ld think that with such numbers the Wood Pigeon would be in decline but the opposite is the case. Mild winters and abundant food supplies mean that Wood Pigeon numbers continue to rise. The Wood Pigeon is considered to be vermin and as such there is no season for shooting them - they can be shot all-year round.

[Ranjeet Singh]

Was browsing through the Remington site and found this relevant part for this topic- A general guide for buying used firearms

http://www.remington.com/library/reming ... ed_gun.asp

Regards
Ranjeet

[eljefe]

Wow! Grumpy,
This is a treasure trove of info.
God Bless you
Axx

[Grumpy]

You`re welcome Asif. We`re all here because of a mutual interest in guns and shooting. The exchange of information is, therefore, a `given. I`ve learned plenty here and passing on what I know is a pleasure.

[Mack The Knife]

Grumpy,

Is Brunner part of the CZ group?

I was leafing through an old Frankonia catalogue (2000/2001) when I came across the spitting image of the ZH-302 but under the Brunner banner. It is call ZH Skeet in the catalogue.

Not only is it available as a shotgun but also as a combination gun and double rifle.

Mack The Knife

[Grumpy]

As far as I know CZ aren`t tied up with anyone. It amazes me that that shotgun was available new in 2001 - It looks so old fashioned. Perhaps Brunner were buying the gun from CZ and marketing it under their own name.
Or is `Brunner` a German form of Brno ? Perhaps that`s how the guns are marketed in Germany ?
I`m getting confused now - is the gun a CZ or a Brno ? I thought it was a Brno ?
Brno don`t have any other gunmaking subsidiaries either.
Contrary to popular opinion CZ and Brno are two entirely separate concerns and have been for several years.
Perhaps Mehul knows something about this ? He has a treasure trove of knowledge on obscure continental gunmakers.......gunmakers generally. Knows a lot more about them than I do.