Whats in a Name

Posts that don't fit into any other category. If it's anything to do with guns, it probably doesn't belong here!
Zafar
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Re: Whats in Name

Post by Zafar » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:57 am

Abhijeet Singh Mundaire - hence the handle "mundaire"... I'm afraid no interesting story to relate...
but i did had an intresting assumption behind it
i was thinking it was (punjabi) munda + air and and the e added for a french effect

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Post by cottage cheese » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:41 pm

mundaire";p="40680 wrote:Abhijeet Singh Mundaire - hence the handle "mundaire"... I'm afraid no interesting story to relate...

Cheers!
Abhijeet
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Re: Whats in Name

Post by Grumpy » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:05 pm

"though what often came to mind was the lucid imagery of a self flagellating sardar..."

It would seem that people think that you`re either a pervert or an exterior wall Abhijeet.......................!!!

I think I`m rather glad that I just settled on being curmudgeonly.
Make a man a fire and he`ll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
( Terry Pratchett )

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Post by mundaire » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:05 pm

:lol: Never realised that there was so much confusion about my handle! Yep, it's also the word used for parapet - my fellow clansmen tell me that there is a slight difference in pronunciation, but if that's true the difference has eluded me thus far :P ... and it does have Sikh origins (we originally hail from the Punjab), nothing to do with self flagellation though!!! :lol: CC, I see your imagination isn't limited to creations in wood & steel ;) :lol:

Cheers!
Abhijeet
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shutzen
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Post by shutzen » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:00 am

HI! With so much confusion about my "handle" some refer to it as stutzen - some think its stutzen spelt wrong by this ignorant dude well ;) I just simplified englicised the spelling a bit
Sorry the explanation bit is a bit too long I think but is a interesting read :oops:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%BCtzen_(military)

Schützen (military)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Schützen is a German term used to designate a type of infantryman, originally armed with a rifled musket and used in a light-infantry or skirmishing role - and hence similar to a Jäger.

Contents [hide]
1 Translation and Background
2 History in Germany
3 History in Other Countries
4 References



[edit] Translation and Background
It is difficult to be exact with the translation of schüzten into English. It has a scope of meaning that includes 'guard', 'protect', 'defend' (e.g. Heimatschutz = home guard). It also means 'shooter' (from schuß 'shoot' or 'fire' and schießen 'shooting' or 'firing', as in Scharfschützen = sharpshooter or sniper, or Schützengraben = a firing trench), and by extension Geschütz = 'gun' (in the sense of artillery as in Sturmgeschütz = assault gun, a type of tank used as self-propelled artillery and originally intended for infantry support).

The rank of Schütze was used for 'Private' in the Imperial German Machine Gun Abteilungen (independent horse-drawn Machine Gun detachments) and for the Saxon Schützen (Fusilier) Regiment No 108. Imperial German Colonial Infantry were referred to as Schutztruppe, while in the First World War the term became more widespread in the Imperial German Army, when it was applied to dismounted Cavalry Divisions, the Kavallerie-Schützen-Divisionen (possibly this was in reference to being armed with an infantry rifle -the Gewehr 98 - rather than the shorter cavalry carbine - the Karabiner 98a).

The Wehrmacht (or actually Heer - the German Army of the Third Reich), and also the Waffen-SS (itself derived from Schutzstaffel), adopted the rank title Schütze for an infantry private (still used in the present day Bundeswehr), and therefore perhaps the best translation is 'rifleman' (or as in British military usage 'Rifles', e.g. 'Queen Victoria’s Rifles') with the additional sense of 'sharpshooter' or 'marksman'. The French equivalent is Tirailleur.

When Germany first introduced Motorised Infantry in the 1930s those regiments that were the Infantry component of the Panzer Divisions, prior to being known as Panzer Grenadiers (from 1942 - see also the German Wikipedia entry), were termed 'Schützen Regiments' (organised into 'Schützen Brigades'). Some were cavalry in origin (belonging to Divisions that had originally been 'Light Divisions'), and carried on the designation used in the First World War - Kavallerie-Schützen-Regiment. Sometimes these designations persisted after the official change to Panzer Grenadier.


[edit] History in Germany
Schützen originated in the Prussian Army from 1787 as 10 hand-picked soldiers from each Company of each Line Regiment (8 companies), each Grenadier Battalion (4 companies) and each Fusilier Battalion (4 companies). For the line infantry and Grenadiers, the Schützen were drawn from the 'third rank' - men who were trained in skirmishing. The Fusiliers, a term in Germany that denoted Light Infantry, were all trained skirmishers. Their role was to precede the main body in 'open order', forming a protective screen and firing at the enemy in a way designed to gall and disrupt. This inevitably led to the selection of men who were superior marksmen, to be armed with rifled weapons and charged specifically with the task of killing or disabling enemy officers or NCOs - thus undermining the cohesion and steadiness of the enemy ranks. The numbers may seem few, and in practice the Prussians found they had insufficient numbers (even though the Fusilier Schützen had been increased from 10 to 22 in 1798), but even when used in large numbers the methodology was to have only a small proportion of them rotated so that they would not run out of ammunition, and so they could always fall back on the main body when threatened by cavalry. As Light Infantry the Fusiliers had greater flexibility, and methods that were appropriate for what was termed 'outpost warfare' - fighting in woodland and villages, covering the flanks or assaulting over broken terrain and defensive earthworks. This included 'Skirmish Attacks', in which the skirmish lines operated offensively, and in greater numbers. Two entire companies - half the strength of the battalion - were utilized, with the remaining two available as supports or relief.

Over time, after the end of the Napoleonic Wars, the Schützen developed many similarities with the Jägers and eventually began to be grouped together in companies (although still integral within an Infantry battalion or regiment) and/or distinguished by special uniform features. One such feature (often also worn by Jägers and in Austria also) endured in many of the German states, on through the Imperial German Army, the Wehrmacht and continuing right up until the present Bundeswehr. This is known as the Schützenschnur (lit. 'shooter-cord') - a braided 'lanyard' denoting a marksman and worn slung from the shoulder, across the breast and secured at a tunic button. Often it was green, and also embellished by being terminated with tassels, pompoms or 'acorns'.

Schützen companies were found, for example, in Bavaria, Mecklenburg, Anhalt and Nassau but as these States gradually entered the German Confederation under Prussia, and adopted the Prussian model (except Bavaria which remained a distinct entity), the Schützen disappeared or were absorbed by the Jägers. At the same time there was a tendency for the Jägers to be converted to the third (Fusilier) Battalion of the Line Infantry Regiments. By 1870 only the Bavarian and Prussian armies contained Schützen; in Bavaria as integral companies, in Prussia as an independent battalion.

Schützen Battalions first appeared as part of the Prussian Army in 1808, and there were only ever a few such battalions in existence. Outside of Prussia only Hesse-Kassel ever raised a Schützen Battalion, which was disbanded in 1866 - although a proportion were embodied in the newly-raised Prussian 11th Jäger Battalion (Hessian). The first Prussian Schützen Battalion was recruited from the province of Silesia (the Silesian Schützen Battalion) and a second Battalion was raised in 1814 (the Guard Schützen Battalion) from the Swiss canton of Neuchâtel (which between 1707-1800 and 1814-1848 was the possession of Prussia).

Although similar to the Jäger, the Schützen had a distinct character. Intended as fusilier-style skirmishers but with highly developed marksmanship, they were unable to operate with the same degree of independence and initiative as practised by the Jäger. In the Prussian Army they were phased out between 1821 and 1845, being converted to Jäger - leaving only the Garde-Schützen-Bataillon, which thus became the only unit in the Prussian Army with that designation, and that only titular. However those Jäger Battalions that had a Schützen origin carried on the tradition in subtle ways, and it may be through their links with the mountainous regions of Switzerland, Bavaria and Silesia that the Jäger also adopted techniques and skills of mountaineering, culminating in the creation of the Gebirgsjäger (cf. the Austrian Mountain Troops, the Landesschützen or the Bavarian tradition of the Gebirgsschützen).

In the Imperial German Army prior to World War One, there was only one Schützen Battalion, the Garde-Schützen-Battailon, plus a regiment from Saxony which, while being designated as Schützen (to denote its origin as a regiment formed in 1867 by merging 3 independent Saxon Jäger Battalions), also had the secondary title Fusilier.


[edit] History in Other Countries
United States Sharpshooters

During the American Civil War two regiments of Sharpshooters were raised in 1861 by the Union Army. Commanded by Hiram Berdan, himself a noted marksman who had been actively involved in their recruitment - they were thus popularly known as Berdan’s Sharpshooters. Recruited from picked marksmen, employed as snipers and skirmishers - like the German Schützen they often bore their own personal weapons and were dressed (uniquely for American military units) in dark green.

Austrian Schützen

Tiroler Landesschützen later known as Kaiserschützen.

United Kingdom Sharpshooters

Yeomanry Regiment

French Tirailleurs


[edit] References
Kinner, H; Moss, D A (1977). Jäger & Schützen, Dress and Distinctions, 1910-1914. Bellona Publications. ISBN 0-85242-497-3.
Hoffschröer, Peter; Bryan Fosten (Illustrations) (1984). Prussian Light Infantry 1792-1815 (Men-at-Arms Series #149). Osprey Publishing Ltd. ISBN 0-85045-540-5.
Voigt, G (1983). Deutschlands Heere bis 1918, Band 1 - 5. Biblio Verlag Osnabrück.
A list of Armoured (Motorised) Infantry Units at Feldgrau.com - a site for research on the German armed forces 1918-1945
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%BCt ... ilitary%29"
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Re: Whats in Name

Post by Grumpy » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:27 am

`Kin `eck ! Do we really need 2ft of text to explain that you shutzen the stutzen ?
Make a man a fire and he`ll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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Re: Whats in Name

Post by shutzen » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:18 am

Grumpy";p="40772 wrote:`Kin `eck ! Do we really need 2ft of text to explain that you shutzen the stutzen ?
:lol: well like they say - an explanation is a explanation! :oops:
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Re: Whats in Name

Post by Grumpy » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:15 am

And if a jobs worth doing it`s worth doing well ?
:wink: :lol: :lol:
Make a man a fire and he`ll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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Post by cottage cheese » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:05 am

shutzen";p="40770 wrote:HI! With so much confusion about my "handle" some refer to it as stutzen - some think its stutzen spelt wrong by this ignorant dude well ;) I just simplified englicised the spelling a bit
Sorry the explanation bit is a bit too long I think but is a interesting read :oops:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%BCtzen_(military)

Schützen (military)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Schützen is a German term used to designate a type of infantryman, originally armed with a rifled musket and used in a light-infantry or skirmishing role - and hence similar to a Jäger.

Contents [hide]
1 Translation and Background
2 History in Germany
3 History in Other Countries
4 References



[edit] Translation and Background
It is difficult to be exact with the translation of schüzten into English. It has a scope of meaning that includes 'guard', 'protect', 'defend' (e.g. Heimatschutz = home guard). It also means 'shooter' (from schuß 'shoot' or 'fire' and schießen 'shooting' or 'firing', as in Scharfschützen = sharpshooter or sniper, or Schützengraben = a firing trench), and by extension Geschütz = 'gun' (in the sense of artillery as in Sturmgeschütz = assault gun, a type of tank used as self-propelled artillery and originally intended for infantry support).

The rank of Schütze was used for 'Private' in the Imperial German Machine Gun Abteilungen (independent horse-drawn Machine Gun detachments) and for the Saxon Schützen (Fusilier) Regiment No 108. Imperial German Colonial Infantry were referred to as Schutztruppe, while in the First World War the term became more widespread in the Imperial German Army, when it was applied to dismounted Cavalry Divisions, the Kavallerie-Schützen-Divisionen (possibly this was in reference to being armed with an infantry rifle -the Gewehr 98 - rather than the shorter cavalry carbine - the Karabiner 98a).

The Wehrmacht (or actually Heer - the German Army of the Third Reich), and also the Waffen-SS (itself derived from Schutzstaffel), adopted the rank title Schütze for an infantry private (still used in the present day Bundeswehr), and therefore perhaps the best translation is 'rifleman' (or as in British military usage 'Rifles', e.g. 'Queen Victoria’s Rifles') with the additional sense of 'sharpshooter' or 'marksman'. The French equivalent is Tirailleur.

When Germany first introduced Motorised Infantry in the 1930s those regiments that were the Infantry component of the Panzer Divisions, prior to being known as Panzer Grenadiers (from 1942 - see also the German Wikipedia entry), were termed 'Schützen Regiments' (organised into 'Schützen Brigades'). Some were cavalry in origin (belonging to Divisions that had originally been 'Light Divisions'), and carried on the designation used in the First World War - Kavallerie-Schützen-Regiment. Sometimes these designations persisted after the official change to Panzer Grenadier.


[edit] History in Germany
Schützen originated in the Prussian Army from 1787 as 10 hand-picked soldiers from each Company of each Line Regiment (8 companies), each Grenadier Battalion (4 companies) and each Fusilier Battalion (4 companies). For the line infantry and Grenadiers, the Schützen were drawn from the 'third rank' - men who were trained in skirmishing. The Fusiliers, a term in Germany that denoted Light Infantry, were all trained skirmishers. Their role was to precede the main body in 'open order', forming a protective screen and firing at the enemy in a way designed to gall and disrupt. This inevitably led to the selection of men who were superior marksmen, to be armed with rifled weapons and charged specifically with the task of killing or disabling enemy officers or NCOs - thus undermining the cohesion and steadiness of the enemy ranks. The numbers may seem few, and in practice the Prussians found they had insufficient numbers (even though the Fusilier Schützen had been increased from 10 to 22 in 1798), but even when used in large numbers the methodology was to have only a small proportion of them rotated so that they would not run out of ammunition, and so they could always fall back on the main body when threatened by cavalry. As Light Infantry the Fusiliers had greater flexibility, and methods that were appropriate for what was termed 'outpost warfare' - fighting in woodland and villages, covering the flanks or assaulting over broken terrain and defensive earthworks. This included 'Skirmish Attacks', in which the skirmish lines operated offensively, and in greater numbers. Two entire companies - half the strength of the battalion - were utilized, with the remaining two available as supports or relief.

Over time, after the end of the Napoleonic Wars, the Schützen developed many similarities with the Jägers and eventually began to be grouped together in companies (although still integral within an Infantry battalion or regiment) and/or distinguished by special uniform features. One such feature (often also worn by Jägers and in Austria also) endured in many of the German states, on through the Imperial German Army, the Wehrmacht and continuing right up until the present Bundeswehr. This is known as the Schützenschnur (lit. 'shooter-cord') - a braided 'lanyard' denoting a marksman and worn slung from the shoulder, across the breast and secured at a tunic button. Often it was green, and also embellished by being terminated with tassels, pompoms or 'acorns'.

Schützen companies were found, for example, in Bavaria, Mecklenburg, Anhalt and Nassau but as these States gradually entered the German Confederation under Prussia, and adopted the Prussian model (except Bavaria which remained a distinct entity), the Schützen disappeared or were absorbed by the Jägers. At the same time there was a tendency for the Jägers to be converted to the third (Fusilier) Battalion of the Line Infantry Regiments. By 1870 only the Bavarian and Prussian armies contained Schützen; in Bavaria as integral companies, in Prussia as an independent battalion.

Schützen Battalions first appeared as part of the Prussian Army in 1808, and there were only ever a few such battalions in existence. Outside of Prussia only Hesse-Kassel ever raised a Schützen Battalion, which was disbanded in 1866 - although a proportion were embodied in the newly-raised Prussian 11th Jäger Battalion (Hessian). The first Prussian Schützen Battalion was recruited from the province of Silesia (the Silesian Schützen Battalion) and a second Battalion was raised in 1814 (the Guard Schützen Battalion) from the Swiss canton of Neuchâtel (which between 1707-1800 and 1814-1848 was the possession of Prussia).

Although similar to the Jäger, the Schützen had a distinct character. Intended as fusilier-style skirmishers but with highly developed marksmanship, they were unable to operate with the same degree of independence and initiative as practised by the Jäger. In the Prussian Army they were phased out between 1821 and 1845, being converted to Jäger - leaving only the Garde-Schützen-Bataillon, which thus became the only unit in the Prussian Army with that designation, and that only titular. However those Jäger Battalions that had a Schützen origin carried on the tradition in subtle ways, and it may be through their links with the mountainous regions of Switzerland, Bavaria and Silesia that the Jäger also adopted techniques and skills of mountaineering, culminating in the creation of the Gebirgsjäger (cf. the Austrian Mountain Troops, the Landesschützen or the Bavarian tradition of the Gebirgsschützen).

In the Imperial German Army prior to World War One, there was only one Schützen Battalion, the Garde-Schützen-Battailon, plus a regiment from Saxony which, while being designated as Schützen (to denote its origin as a regiment formed in 1867 by merging 3 independent Saxon Jäger Battalions), also had the secondary title Fusilier.


[edit] History in Other Countries
United States Sharpshooters

During the American Civil War two regiments of Sharpshooters were raised in 1861 by the Union Army. Commanded by Hiram Berdan, himself a noted marksman who had been actively involved in their recruitment - they were thus popularly known as Berdan’s Sharpshooters. Recruited from picked marksmen, employed as snipers and skirmishers - like the German Schützen they often bore their own personal weapons and were dressed (uniquely for American military units) in dark green.

Austrian Schützen

Tiroler Landesschützen later known as Kaiserschützen.

United Kingdom Sharpshooters

Yeomanry Regiment

French Tirailleurs


[edit] References
Kinner, H; Moss, D A (1977). Jäger & Schützen, Dress and Distinctions, 1910-1914. Bellona Publications. ISBN 0-85242-497-3.
Hoffschröer, Peter; Bryan Fosten (Illustrations) (1984). Prussian Light Infantry 1792-1815 (Men-at-Arms Series #149). Osprey Publishing Ltd. ISBN 0-85045-540-5.
Voigt, G (1983). Deutschlands Heere bis 1918, Band 1 - 5. Biblio Verlag Osnabrück.
A list of Armoured (Motorised) Infantry Units at Feldgrau.com - a site for research on the German armed forces 1918-1945
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%BCt ... ilitary%29"
Gott in Himmel.... shutzen please change your handle...or ask the despotic thread merging flagellating sardar to do it for you.... :mrgreen:
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Post by shutzen » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:17 am

[quote="cottage cheese";p="40786[/quote] Gott in Himmel.... shutzen please change your handle...or ask the despotic thread merging flagellating sardar to do it for you.... :mrgreen:[/quote]

:lol: 8) :D Ahh.. the visions several members have about dear ole Mundaire - I guess it comes from the extra "i" he has put into the spelling ;)

And CC now you have really got my schooldays commando comics german going - here is what I remember off hand:

Achtung! - Terror flieger- ein englander - hande hoch - bitte- danke- schnell- raus- donner und blitzen-kamerad- 8) *schwinehund* :lol: Herr hauptmann -mein herr- tommy-
Brits: squarehead - hans- krauts- jerries-
Last edited by shutzen on Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Happy » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:58 am

Hey Dev,
If i am not mistaken "mundaire" is the "chajja" or the roof, as it goes in the song "mahi re mahi mundaire pe tere bol raha hai Kaga........man jogi sang laga"
Happy

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Post by cottage cheese » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:41 pm

shutzen";p="40793 wrote: And CC now you have really got my schooldays commando comics german going - here is what I remember off hand:

Achtung! - Terror flieger- ein englander - hande hoch - bitte- danke- schnell- raus- donner und blitzen-kamerad- 8)
...ah!...and that's about all Commando comics taught us....besides aaargh!, urgh!, eyaagh! aieeee!...etc. :)

Tried blurting out those words to a german friend... he was pretty amused :)
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Post by shooter » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:47 pm

no intresting story behind the word shooter other than it was actually a nickname given by my friends and referred to some other kind of "bang bang"
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Re: Whats in Name

Post by penpusher » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:07 pm

I don't think I need to say anything about my user name.It is self explanatory.No need for a 2ft long note on what,the word that I have misspelled, actually means :wink:

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Re: Whats in Name

Post by Grumpy » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:14 pm

You had Commando comics as well CC ? Yeah, I remember all those utterings of enemy soldiers as they died......and that the Japanese ALWAYS screamed `Aieee` used to really amuse me.
Make a man a fire and he`ll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
( Terry Pratchett )

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