info required on baikal rifles

[indian]

hi everybody does any of the members have any idea about baikal rifles?i mean,quality,reliability etc...i have come across baikal shotguns only.any info would be appreciated

[shahid]

Rifles or Baikal Air Rifles ?

[indian]

its rifles

[Grumpy]

If you`re talking about the single barrel, single shot - break barrel - and O/U rifles then I have experience of both. The single barrel rifles don`t look too wonderful but are capable of ridiculous accuracy - extremely good value for money considering how cheap they are. I managed best groups of c 5/8" at 100 yrds with a .222 version. Based on the single barrel shotgun action but strengthened somewhat. The wood is pine of some de.scription unless you by a Remington marketed version which has a better finish and Walnut.
The double barrel O/U rifles are based on Baikals O/U shotgun action but, again, suitably strengthened. The O/U rifle has a regulating device between the barrels which assists with regulating the barrel to barrel grouping. I managed to get c. 3 1/4" groups, barrel to barrel, at 100 metres without experimenting too much using commercially loaded ammunition with a 30-06. Further time and effort would enable tighter groups. A friend who has a 9.3x74R and who handloads gets 2" groups, barrel to barrel but he has had to bed the lower barrel into the fore-end.
The finish isn`t exactly superb on either version but the O/U does, at least, come with Walnut ( on UK versions ) nowadays. The barrel blacking is a sort of brownish colour which doesn`t look as good as actual black. With some time and effort a smart and accurate rifle can be achieved.
Remington don`t market the O/U rifle, just the combination gun.
Reliability and strength isn`t an issue with either version as they are typically Baikal - tough as old boots.
By the way, a French custom gunmaker uses the Baikal O/U action as the basis for his double rifles.

[indian]

thanks very much for the info grumpy i was talking about the O/U 30-06.recently seen them at ellwood epps.i think it might be suitable for what we hunt around here(bear and deer).would a scope improve the results??

[Grumpy]

Indian, the Baikal O/U double is the best priced double rifle you can buy but is not at all rubbish - it`s just amazing value for money. I had a 30-06 and can thoroughly recommend it.
Please note that the accuracy quoted is barrel to barrel. Grouping from one barrel only is considerbly better however you need to set up the regulation in order that any follow up shot from the second barrel is as close as possible to the first.
It`s worth considering getting the 9.3x74R as that will allow you to easily tackle ANY N.American game: Caribou, Moose, Grizzly - you name it. Ammo is more expensive - especially if you don`t reload - but Hornady now manufacture the calibre. When I use a 9.3x74R I use Norma Onyx 286 gr. The 9.3x74R ( and its rimless equivalent, the 9.3x62 ) is a heck of a calibre and very under-rated. I`m sure that I`ve mentioned on IFG previously that my friend uses his Baikal 9.3x74R on early season Red Stags as they can be decidedly feisty ( ! ) and take some putting down when the testosterone is still coursing through their bodies.
If you decide on the 30-06 use heavy bullets for large game - I recommend the Remington 220 gr SP. The 30-06 will cope with Caribou or Moose ( or Grizzly ) but the heavier the bullet the better.
A scope on a double ? Of course. High power, large objective lens scopes look ridiculous on a double but a 6x42 or a low power variable such as the Simmons Whitetail 1.5-5x20 would be ideal. The Baikals sight rib is machined to take scope mounts.
Elwood Epps has an international reputation and if he didn`t rate the Baikal O/U double you can take it for granted that he wouldn`t stock it. I really do rate the rifle very highly and plan on getting another. The adjustable regulation is a very useful feature but takes a fair bit of setting up......and a fair anount of ammo to do so. Worth the effort though. Just remember that if you change bullet weight you will have to re-regulate the rifle.
Double rifles are ideal for extreme weather conditions as you don`t have to try and work the bolt with gloves on in the freezing cold and don`t have to worry about getting snow and ice in the action and freezing the bolt up.
Using an O/U double is SUCH a buzz !!!

[indian]

thanks for the nice explanation grumpy i will surely checkout these rifles.they are being sold for $500 which is very cheap price for a double

[indian]

found their website. www.baikalcanada.com

[TwoRivers]

Nope, Grumpy, don't think you'll ever find pine as a gunstock wood. It would never hold up. Way too soft. Russian guns are typically stocked in birch or beech, if not walnut. A bit stiff, but strong and sturdy. Wish they'd use the smaller 20 gauge frame, instead of the 12. 9.3X74R ammo is going to be hard to find in the US, even with Hornady now producing it, and Norma again more readily available, and S&B bringing it in, too. Unfortunately Remington isn't importing any of the rimmed caliber rifles, a much better choice for a break-barrel. In any case, they are not popular over here, right now I can pick up a walnut stocked .30-06 O/U for US $ 280, wholesale. Tempting.
Cheers!

[Grumpy]

I think that you`re right about Baikal using Birch to stock their rifles but all the Remington marketed versions are walnut stocked anyway. Pine HAS been used as a timber for stocks - by the Russians, Chinese and even the Germans ( in WWII ) amongst others - it depends what type of pine is used as some species are much harder than others.
In the UK the doubles have Walnut and the single barrels the crappy wood.....Go figure. Those are Baikals, not Remington branded although Edgar Bros do distribute some of the Remingtons......but not the doubles.
That mail-order concern down in Texas was shifting Baikal double rifles for around $280 when they cleared the stocks brought in by the previous importer. I`ve also seen the Remington versions being offered around that figure. I`m not surpised that they aren`t doing well in the US as they are somewhat utilitarian for American tastes.......especially the Kipplauf type single barrels. It didn`t help that Remington initially branded them `Spartan` until they realised that the name - although accurate - wasn`t exactly a good choice.
The 9.3x74R IS ( or was the last time I checked which was a while ago ) imported to Canada where Baikal have their own distribution company.
The doubles would look better if they had a centre rib but that would cause problems with the operation of the regulation device. Even so, the rifles are exceptional value for money, well built and accurate. Tarted up versions look quite a lot smarter.
9.3x74R ammo is easily available in mainland Europe where the calibre has been a favourite stalking and Wild Boar round for many years........Most ( all ? ) continental doubles in the calibre are factory regulated with RWS ammo.

[TwoRivers]

OK, Grumpy, pretty sure you are not a forester or woodworker. Some tropical "pine", such as Phillipine "Mahogany" is considerably harder than pine from temperate regions, and I have used it successfully for .22 rimfires. I use pine for making a stock pattern, soft and easy to work. I'd have to see a Russian or Chinese stock made out of pine to believe it. I can find no evidence whatsovever in the German literature that pine was used. The laminated stock of the 98 k was beech. Towards the end of the war, the Volkssturm weapons were stocked in any hardwood available, maybe even a softwood, though spruce and fir would be harder and stronger than pine. Importers are notorious for not knowing what they are talking about. And so are 90% (a very generous estimate) of our American gunwriters.
The Canadian Baikal site does not currently list anything in 9.3x74R. In my view, a common mistake the importers make is not realizing this is a niche market; and the people interested in such a rifle are knowedgeable enought to want a rimmed shell and able to deal with the ammunition problem. But instead they want to tap the mass market, and go with what their market researchers tell them, that cartridge "A" currently leads in sales of ammo and reloading dies. For instance, Ruger bringing the No.1 out in .308 Winchester as its first chambering was stupid. People interested in a single-shot didn't want a .308 Winchester; and those buying the .308s didn't want a single-shot. They wanted firepower and big magazines. Ammo for the 9.3, while available over here, is a problem. You won't find it at you corner gun store, or mass retailer. It's special order with all the attendant hassle and expense. There is just too little demand to stock it. Well, enough rambling, and the horses are hungry.
Cheers! (Walt)

[Grumpy]

The African and East Indian `Mahoganys`are a subject unto themselves. It`s quite common for Sapele and Iroko to be referred to as `Mahogany` here and the same applies to the commonly seen East Indian variant.............Whether they are even a member of the Mahogany Family is doubtful.....and then there`s `Basswood`...... commonly used by oriental guitar makers.
I`m afraid that I`m guilty of referring to Pines, Spruce et al as `Pine` generically.......Certainly Spruce is much harder........although there is more than one form of spruce also.
I`ve seen `Pine` stocks on late WWII G98s, on various Russian guns, on Chinese guns and on at least one type of French shotgun.
I agree that offering the No 1 in .308 Win is pretty bizarre......even worse is for it to be chambered in .223 Rem - and there are plenty of those around. No 1s are rather strange anyway in that they can be so-and-sos to persuade to shoot accurately. The minimum requirement is to bed to fore-end and improve the trigger. The heavy barrel versions are better in that they are less prone to the fore-end moving the barrel but they just don`t look right with a heavy barrel. Of course they don`t look right with the overly bulky woodwork that Ruger supply anyway. Falling blocks can be very elegant........The No 1 doesn`t look elegant however. A shame because it`s inherently a decent rifle - and by far the least expensive centrefire falling block available.
Doesn`t surprise me that Baikal have dropped the 9.3x74R chamber option in Canada - almost certainly because of the non-availability of ammunition. Hornadys production of the calibre arriving too late I suppose. It is a cracking calibre though and, as I said, very under-rated outside of continental Europe.
Whereabouts in the US are you based Two Rivers.......and what sort of horses do you keep ?

[TwoRivers]

"Any port in a storm" as the saying goes, and if nothing else is available a coniferous wood would have to do, but I'd try to find a suitable sized larch or black spruce, if I wanted any hope of keeping the action in the stock for more than a few shots. Beech was never in short supply in Germany, so a 98 k with "pine" stock is a curious animal, any way you cut it.
Few Americans are at all familiar with the metric cartridges beyond 7x57, and what was brought back after the wars, beyond those who had them; and now the 7.62x39, and 7.62x54R. The latter having been rediscovered due to the recent imports of large numbers of rifles. Being lambasted before, the M-N has now become the object of admiration. Used to be, every gunwriter had to do a "8x57" story at least once, now it's the 7.62x54R and Mosin-Nagant's turn. Of course, the fact that the US ammo makers underload the European calibers does not help their popularity. Now mind you, that's only done to protect the shooters, not the rifle manufacturer's market. Who'd want a new .30-06 if he could get decent ammo for dad's old 8x57? It's unsafe with the original ammo, but it's ok to rebarrel to a 7mm Rem Mag. Figure that one.
Outside Fairbanks, Alaska. Nowegian Fjords. Just quit breeding them, but still have the (used-to-be) stallion and two mares.
As a varmint rifle, a No.1 in .223 makes more sense to me than one in .308 as a big game hunting rifle. Though, some can be temperamental and need to be lovingly talked to. The early ones actually had fair triggers, and better aftermarket triggers are available. We just have too many idiots and lawyers.
Cheers!

[Grumpy]

The reason for the SAAMI specs on the 8x57 are so feeble is that they work on the old 8x57J pressures to save any confusion with the 8x57JS..........Could be nasty if you loaded a JS into a J. That, of course, ignores the fact that the JS uses a .323" diameter bullet and the J a .318" bullet so that if the former was chambered in the latter the pressures would be raised somewhat anyway. That Europeans can figure out the difference whilst Americans ( according to SAAMI ) are apparently unable to do so is an extremely patronising attitude.
The Ruger No 1 has never struck me as being a varmint rifle - especially as it`s just not accurate enough out of the box........Interesting how two people can have such widely diverging views on the same rifle.
The Fjords are the little, dun, `heavy` horses with the Zebra manes aren`t they ? Only seen them in books and on TV. Reckoned to be one of the oldest types of horses around - possibly THE oldest specifically bred breed. The stallions can be very impressive with shoulders and necks like a Percheron..........very butch looking ponies !
Did your stallion notice that he`d lost his `equipment` ? Breeding stallions can be funny in that they sometimes don`t seem to be aware that they should no longer be interested in their former duties after being cut...............( Which is what I presume you were implying ! )

[TwoRivers]

The "old" 8x57I pressures weren't that feeble, they were right at 3300 bar copper crusher, versus 3400 bar for the 8x57IS; and they are still at the tranducer equivalent. Nor is the old M88 Commission rifle action a weak one, the weak point is the slim barrel ahead of the chamber. All post-late 1894 barrels had the .006" deep grooves. So the chances of finding and unconverted pre-1895 M88 are really pretty slim. Of course, jamming an oversized neck and bullet into a tight chamber is not that great an idea; and there were quite a few liberated 8x57I sporters floating around. I suppose loading a flat nosed bullet to short overall length, and so create feeding problems, was just coincidental to the safety concerns.
As to the No.1, I consider it a hunting rifle, and I have yet to find one that would not put that first shot on target, day in and out. Not necessarely group well, but that first shot would be on target.
Yes, that's what they are, duns with eel-stripe and black and white tail and manes. And, he's still studly as ever around the ladies, no one has had the heart to tell him yet. Have yet to ride him in "hot" company!
Cheers.