New pics of my 1911A1

[penpusher]

Yes it is allowed here; in fact it is encouraged.

AMK

That is not what I have heard.You need an NOC from the DCP licensing to buy a .45 and this is more difficult than getting a license for a handgun.Which is pretty difficult in the first place.

So .45ACP is NPB only for VIP's

[HydNawab]

So you are telling me that if I want to buy a .45 pistol from Mumbai, I need to get an NOC from the local DCP or the CP which supposedly is a NPB bore in Maharashtra but its a prohibited bore in Delhi and AP.

I thought the Arms Act was a central act and not a state act.

Ashar

[mundaire]

I thought the Arms Act was a central act and not a state act.

You are correct Ashar, but since the arms are entered on the license as PB/ NPB by the local licensing authority - this is prone to manipulation (sometime out of genuine ignorance of the licensing clerk) but often the law is twisted by it's enforcers with full knowledge of what they are doing. In the end the person who suffers is the arms licensee as, if and when this is brought under scrutiny the arms licensee would have to answer for it and may end up having his gun impounded.

I have heard of several instances of .303 British rifles, 9mm parabellum pistols etc. being entered (incorrectly) as NPB arms on the license. The problems crop up when the person decides to travel/ shift outside of their own jurisdiction into another area where they do not enjoy the same level of "clout". However, these arms licensees know this and stay well within their area of influence.

Anyhow, the classification of PB/ NPB is a stupid antiquated law that should be done away with immediately. Besides making life less complicated for everyone (including the authorities), it would allow the government to make a serious amount of money by auctioning off old .303 & 7.62 SMLE rifles, .455 & .38 calibre Webley revolvers and other firearms that are being phased out now and are slated for destruction!!! What a waste of some beautiful firearms!!!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[amk]

Yes it is allowed here; in fact it is encouraged.

AMK

That is not what I have heard.You need an NOC from the DCP licensing to buy a .45 and this is more difficult than getting a license for a handgun.Which is pretty difficult in the first place.

So .45ACP is NPB only for VIP's

What are you talking about? You asked is open carrying allowed; I said yes; now what are you referring to? Are you asking if open carrying a .45 is allowed or not?

Although I wish I was a VIP I ain't one; but I got a fourteee five.

I didn't hear what you heard and I don't think I went through the procedure you heard about. Sorry to disappoint.

AMK

[amk]

So you are telling me that if I want to buy a .45 pistol from Mumbai, I need to get an NOC from the local DCP or the CP which supposedly is a NPB bore in Maharashtra but its a prohibited bore in Delhi and AP.

I thought the Arms Act was a central act and not a state act.

Ashar

I didn't need any special NOC, unless the dealer got it behind my back. There is no special mention of NOC on my AL, I don't have any NOC paper with me and I am no VIP. I did not have to grease any palms to get my license.

AMK

[HydNawab]

AMK

Did you find the weapon easily or did you have to search for it.

What is the demand and availibility for prohibited bore pistols?

Ashar

[penpusher]

Let me point out a couple of things re. the difference between a PB and NPB:-

1.License for the former can only be issued by the MOH GOI.Like the one Abhijeet has for his .45.For the latter a license is issued by the local licensing authority.The Arms Act and allied Rules are applicable through out the territory of the Indian Union including J&K.The last time I checked the Arms Rules indicate that a license for a pistol that can fire a .45 rimless cartridge can only be issued by the MOH ,GOI.

2.The other difference is in the matter of punishment.In case you murder some one with a prohibited firearm then the punishment for that is 'DEATH'.In case you kill some one you have to prove that:-a)that it was really self defence and b) the force used was in keeping with the threat faced In some courts you may get away with arguing that .45 is not a Prohibited firearm but some courts may not buy this argument.

3.The licensing authority is considered to be acting in good faith and in case it is found that you have managed to get a PB firearm on a NPB license you are considered liable for punishment for misleading the licensing authority.

4.The price

[amk]

Was that for my benefit? Thanks for refreshing my memory.

The other points have been repeated often but point 2 was new I think. Correct me if I'm wrong but a) and b) would have to be proved by you if you murdered someone with a NPB firearm too; right?

[Sakobav]

I never knew the second rule of Death as plausible sentence for prohibted bore ( which equates to unlicensed powerful weapons )

Best

[penpusher]

Was that for my benefit? Thanks for refreshing my memory.

The other points have been repeated often but point 2 was new I think. Correct me if I'm wrong but a) and b) would have to be proved by you if you murdered someone with a NPB firearm too; right?

That is true.But in case you do this with a NPB firearm,you might benefit form the "rarest of rare" clause laid down by the Supremem Court when awarding the death penalty.Where as ,in case it is with a Prohibited firearm,this would not apply and the mandatory sentence is death

[amk]

Thanks; I don't plan to and hope never to murder anyone.

AMK

[Vikram]

I think it is getting personal.

AMK, penpusher is not trying to rob you of your pride of possessing a very fine firearm.All he is trying to tell you is that you can own it provided it is through the correct procedure.He explained very clearly what the arms act says and what is the right way to get a PB firearm license. He is not implying that you intend to kill any one without a valid reason.Still, we cannot take it for granted that we may never come to a situation where you have to shoot a person.In such a rare case, the legality of the firearm will be questioned.Ignorance of law or bureaucratic shortfalls do not offer sufficient protection in courts. It is upto you to accept or reject the rationality of the suggestion offered. The risks are yours and you said as much.However, it is in the benefit our readers that these matters be cleared up in the right context.

The bottomline is
.45 rimless cartridge is a PB calibre for which a license can only be given by the Home Ministry of Government of India. If a State government or a local licensing authority issues a PB license, it is wrong.In the latter case,it does not offer same protection as having a valid NPB license in the case of shooting in self-defence.

Hope, that clears everything?

Thanks penpusher for the legal angles of owning these.Thanks,AMK for sharing with us the pics of your lovely .45.

Shoot straight, shoot safe-
Vikram

[mundaire]

penpusher, IIRC there are judicial precedents in which it has been clarified that "Prohibited Bore" is not the same as "Prohibited Arms" and do not therefore attract the clause of automatic death penalty as laid out in law. Prohibited Arms are those which are mentioned in Arms Act 1959 - Section 2 - Sec. 2(1) (i).

"prohibited arms" means---

(i) firearms so designed or adapted that, if pressure is applied to the trigger, missiles continue to be discharged until pressure is removed from the trigger or the magazine containing the missiles is empty, or

(ii) weapons of any de.scription designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid, gas or other such thing, and includes artillery, anti-aircraft and anti-tank firearms and such other arms as the Central Government may, by notification in the Official Gazette, specify to be prohibited arms;

Therefore for the automatic death penalty to be applicable the homicide would need to have been committed using arms which fall under category (i) or category (ii) as outlined above. "Prohibited Bore" or more accurately "Restricted Bore" (as their ownership is restricted and not truly "prohibited") arms would not fall in the above mentioned categories.

Hope this clarifies the issue.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Lawman]

Hi penpusher,

I think there is no penal law in our counrty where death is the only and mandatory sentence.

Lawman

[mundaire]

Hi penpusher,

I think there is no penal law in our counrty where death is the only and mandatory sentence.

Lawman

AFAIK there is a mandatory death sentence for any homicide committed using "prohibited arms". This was introduced via an amendment to the relevant penal section some years back, I believe the reason was to ensure that those committing terrorist acts are sent straight to the gallows - as these gentlemen almost always use arms in the "prohibited arms" category to commit crimes (grenades/ rocket launchers/ full auto firearms etc.)

Cheers!
Abhijeet