IOF 315 rifle and cartridge

[penpusher]

Shahid,

The IOF .315 rifle uses an Enfield action.BSA also built rifles using the Enfield action.It does not mean that the IOF .315 is a direct copy of a BSA rifle.Indian ordnance factories built a huge number of .303 and 7.62 rifles on the Enfield action.


Any BSA rifle with an Enfield action would look almost the same from a photograph.How the hell did you deduce the caliber from the photo.

If 2 rifles look the same then is it that they must fire the same cartridge.I think not.


Your line of reasoning and hence your conclusions are flawed,as always

[kuduae]

Dear penpusher,
as I am the guy who found .315 BSA rifle and cartridge in Manton's 1925 catalog, I posted the relevant pages in my personal album, so you may have a look yourself and don't have to rely on shahid's statements.
Handloading and cartridge collecting may be outlawed in India, but I am fully licensed to do so here in Germany. I have got quite a reference collection of cartridges, and the ".315" cartridge pictured by Manton's looks exactly like the 8x50R Mannlicher in my collection, but very much unlike any other of the 20+ other 8mm cartridges I have got. Besides, it is the only 8mm cartridge I know that shares the same ballistics, 244grs at roughly 2000fps, with both the 8x50R and the.315 IOF. It is definitly not a necked up .303 case, as such a thing with it's smaller base diameter and more tapered body would look entirely different to me.
By the way, you once complained about a "Mannlicher-Schoenauer fitted with a box magazine". May this have been one of the ultra rare Haenel/Suhl M1900 or M1909 rifles In short order I will post photos of these too.

[shooter]

kuduae. it was nice to learn about the iof 315 from you. keep posting regularly.
can you tell us (in a new thread) about hunting in germany.
thanks

[penpusher]

Kuduae,

What we seem to have concluded so far is that;

1.The IOF .315 cartridge bears a strong similarity to the 8x50R Austrian Mannlicher cartridge.

2.Though the 2 cartridges look alike,there are however differences in the case dimensions of the two.A likely result of the loose manufacturing tolerances slowly leading to the IOF .315 cartridge evolving into a beast of it's own.

3.This coupled with the lack of knowledge about the chamber pressures at which the IOF .315 cartridge operates would make it unwise for any one to try to fire the IOF .315 cartridge in any rifle meant to fire the 8X50R Austrian Mannlicher cartridge.

4.BSA did make rifles in 8X50R Austrian Mannlicher cartridge.Some of these rifle may have been designated as being chambered for the .315 cartridge as per the whims and fancies of the proofing house/ gun manufacturer.

There is a strong monetary angle involved here which goes beyond the mere question of the origin of the IOF .315 cartridge.Any rifle for which ammo can be bought easily sells for a mind boggling sum in India.A result of the 1986 restriction on the import of firearms.Therefore unscrupulous dealers,of whom there are plenty,try to make a fast buck by resorting to questionable methods that can endanger the lives of their customers.So a BSA rifle chambered for the 8X50R Austrain Mannlicher cartridge being sold as 'imported .315 rifle' means big bucks for the dealer/seller.

The IOF .315 cartridge may fit in the chamber of a BSA 8X50R rifle and may also safely fire in it for a couple of times.Considering what we know,would you say that this is a safe practice???

Can we now proclaim to all and sundry,based on a photograph and the apparent similarity of the 8X50R Austrian cartridge to the IOF .315 cartridge, that the IOF .315 cartridge can be safely fired in any rifle chambered for the 8X50R Austrian Mannlicher cartridge as both are the same???

BTW loading cartridges for personal use is legal in India

[kuduae]

First, before using any cartridge in any older firearm of dubious origin, I try to gather as much information as I can: First, I study the proof marks and try to interpret them. Then, I make a sulphur chamber cast, drive a lead slug through the barrels and mike both carefully to establish what cartridge may fit and to find out if these still conform to the proof. The I disassemble a cartidge of unknown vintage to find out more about bullet diameter , powder charge and so on. Now, to the 8x50R/.315 IOF/ .303 British/ Lee actioned rifle problem. IOF on their home page assign to the .315 IOF a mean working pressure of 18 tons per square inch, the same pressure given by Kynoch in 1925 to both the high speed 154grs load of the "8mm (.315) Mannlicher and slightly less then for the .303 174 and 150 grs sporting loads at 18.5 tsi. As you know, you cannot simply recalculate the old tpi readouts into bar, because the Brits used the Woolwich apparatus, which used the oiled cartridge case as the piston to push back a movable breech which in turn worked on a copper crusher. This thing, because of higher inertia, gives about 20% lower readouts then the Rodman copper crusher system used on the continent. The modern piezo-electric transducers still give even higher readouts. The modern European CIP proof tables list the 8x50R at 3100 bar and the .303 at 3200 bar mean allowable working pressure, to my tastes close enough to the IOF and Kynoch figures. The .308 works at 3600 bar. So, if the critical case measurements as headspace estalished by the rim, case base diameter, overall case length and bullet diameter fit the rifle's chamber within acceptable tolerances, I would not hesitate to use a .315 IOF in a rifle proofed for the 8x50R or vice versa. But, I really trust only ammo made by myself, especially if the factory stuff is of apparent low quality.

[penpusher]

But, I really trust only ammo made by myself, especially if the factory stuff is of apparent low quality.

Re loading for personal use is legal,however getting the right components for this is impossible.Knowledge on how to do this is virtually non existent.So ,we are limited to factory ammo.IOF's ammo varies from batch to batch.The previous batch of .32ACP and .32S&W Long ammo. was loaded to almost proof loads.IOF takes an undertaking from the dealers in the form of an affidavit that they would not complain about the quality of their .22LR ammo. before it is sold to them.

You also can't discount the possibility that the chambers of these rifles might have been tampered with, to enable them to chamber the IOF .315 cartridge.

First, before using any cartridge in any older firearm of dubious origin, I try to gather as much information as I can: First, I study the proof marks and try to interpret them. Then, I make a sulphur chamber cast, drive a lead slug through the barrels and mike both carefully to establish what cartridge may fit and to find out if these still conform to the proof. The I disassemble a cartidge of unknown vintage to find out more about bullet diameter , powder charge and so on

Nobody does this in India.

[shahid]

kuduae, can you provide us with a link to your personal album. Are there more pages of this 1925 manton catalouge posted there ?

[mundaire]

kuduae, can you provide us with a link to your personal album. Are there more pages of this 1925 manton catalouge posted there ?

You can visit the "personal album" of any IFG member, by clicking on the correct icon below their country flag - just to the right of the "PM" icon...

HTH
Cheers!
Abhijeet

[shahid]

Thanks Abhijeet.

THe advertisement from the 1925 Manton catalouge is there. Just have a look. It is even called the .315.

[mundaire]

Kuduae, thank you for a very informative post...

Thanks Abhijeet.

THe advertisement from the 1925 Manton catalouge is there. Just have a look. It is even called the .315.

Kuduae post makes things quite clear... I've rated his post from my side, if others find this (or for that matter any other really good/ informative post) - it would be nice if you could take the time to rate that post...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[penpusher]

There are THREE rifle cartridges referred to as .315 in the Kynoch catalogue 7.9(8mm Mauser) 8mm Austrian Mannlicher(8X50R) and the 8mm Mannlicher Schonauer.In all probability the BSA is chambered for the 8X50R Austrian Mannlicher cartridge.


I will say it again,"Please do not consider the IOF .315 cartridge and the 8X50R Austrian service cartridge(referred to as .315 in an old Kynoch catalogue) as being interchangeable.If you do so,you do it at possible risk to yourself and the rifle."

[shahid]

IOF .315 is tested at 18 Tons / inch for the record.

[eljefe]

Thanks Abhijeet , shahid, penpusher and kudu-
If someone will volunteer a 315, i will chamber cast with sulphur and slug and mike it and post results here .
About time this creature was id'd and tamed instead of the mystique...for the purists who want a cerrosafe chamber cast. you'll have to wait till march.

[mundaire]

Thanks Abhijeet , shahid, penpusher and kudu-
If someone will volunteer a 315, i will chamber cast with sulphur and slug and mike it and post results here .
About time this creature was id'd and tamed instead of the mystique...for the purists who want a cerrosafe chamber cast. you'll have to wait till march.

Won't be a problem... lemme know whenever you have a free afternoon...
Cheers!
Abhijeet

[marksman]

Will some one please explain then how the .315 IOF cartridge came into being? Did it come from the IOF drawing board or it evolved itself from the worn machinery that was imported for us poor sports persons in India, as is often the practice in our country. I am sure the .22 lr IOF cartridge too is slightly different from .22 lr that exists elsewhere. I have personally compared it with imported ammo and found out. Please think twice before using IOF rounds in foreign made fire arms in .22 lr caliber.
Marksman