IOF 315 rifle and cartridge

[kuduae]

Hi Grumpy, Rechambering a 8x50R Mannlicher or, if you like it or not,a .315, to 8x56R M31 Hungarian would be a very unwise move! M95 Mannlicher straight pull rifles in that caliber are very common and cheap here in Germany, but shooting them is difficult and expensive! No one makes sporting cartridges. You may get some old Bulgarian military ammo, but the cases are non reloadable because of an odd size Berdan primer, and that ammo is good only for plinking! The 8x50R uses ubiquitous standart 8mmS/.323" bullets, while the 8x56R M31 uses an odd sized .329" bullet! You will have to buy custom bullets made by both Woodleigh and Degol in .330" for the old .318 W-R cartridge, but a box of 50 will exceed the price you paid for the rifle. For cases, you have to go to Bertram or Horneber, but a box of 20 will again set you back the same amount. On the other hand, for the 8x50R , and I think for the.315 too, you can make satisfactory cases from cheap, new, Boxer primed S&B 7,62x54R Russian brass, and you may get considerably higher velocities with lighter .323" bullets of 150-170grs. But, check the rifling twist too! Steyr used a very quick 1 in 8" twist in most of their barrels to stabilize the long,heavy bullets, and these more often then not give only poor accuracy with light,high speed bullets. This may be a reason why the Hungarians not only rechambered, but also rebored and rerifled their military rifles in the conversion to the 8x56R M31! For instance two of my prewar Mannlicher-Schoenauers, a M1924 in 30-06 and a M1925 in 8x60S, both with that fast 1/8 twist, will not group any bullet under 180grs decently. A high velocity, flat trajectory rifle is pretty useless if it groups no better then 5" at 100m or yards!

[kuduae]

To penpusher: IF there ever was a thing like a rifle made for a .303 necked up to 8mm, it would be impossible to chamber and fire a .315 IOF or a 8x50R cartridge in it, because the too thick base of said cartridges will them only allow the chamber half way. the other way around, a .303 merely necked up to 8mm cannot be fired in a 8x50R or .315 chamber, because the case's more forward shoulder will prevent the cartridge to enter completely and does not allow the bolt to be closed. Perhaps it was that no-way non-interchangeability why such an outlandish cartridge like the 8x50R was chosen in the first place as an replacement for the prohibited .303 for the colonial Indian market?

[Grumpy]

Thanks for the insight.
I make no bones about the fact that my knowledge/experience of the 8x50R Mannlicher is limited......and virtually non-existent in the case of the 8x56R. I had no idea that the 8x56R utilises a .329" bullet for example. I suppose that it`s a matter of neither being of interest to me.
As it happens, the matter is irrelevent as Asif has already stated that 8x56R ammunition is just not available in India......and I very much doubt that there is any facility to rebore/rechamber to the calibre anyway.
What the rate of twist is in the IOF .315 rifle is unknown. I did ask some time ago but no-one has been able to answer however as the only available ammunition uses a 244 gr bullet I suspect that it is quite fast.

I have a sort of love/hate relationship with M-S sporting rifles : I love the quality of manufacture and the silky smooth operation but hate the stock dimensions which seem to have been designed for some very peculiarly shaped Austrian gentlemen and which I find uncomfortable even with open sights........but I never use open sights. It is possible to bend the stock up on some but the quality of wood is very variable - some have really nice wood, most have a boring but straight grained Walnut and some utilise a wood that might pretend to be Walnut but is definitely something else.....athough what it might be is anyones guess. Some sort of comb raiser is necessary for me but I think that comb raisers look horrible stuck on a nice rifle.
M-S accuracy is peculiar. Most are pretty good - perhaps not brilliant by modern standards but easily adequate - whilst others are very picky as regards what ammunition they prefer.....certainly in the case of the 6.5x54 anyway.
The 8x60S is quite a thumper - a very effective cartridge but you definitely feel it in a little M-S !
The M1910 in 9.5x57 feels quite different - a slower but comfortable push. Not exactly a powerhouse cartridge anyway.
Recoil from from the 30-06 in a M1924 is decidedly noticeable......again the result of the low comb/low toe.
The 6.5x54 M-S was possibly the most commonly used rifle/cartridge in the UK at one time but when the minimum 1700 ft lbs standard for Deer hunting was introduced the problem of commercially manufactured cartridges not achieving the required energy from the 17.7" barrelled carbines caused them all ( of whatever barrel length ) to rapidly decline in numbers. Now all M-S rifles are pretty thin on the ground in the UK and ammunition can be quite difficult to obtain - unless one reloads of course. I assume that most have been exported to the US.

[cottage cheese]

Perhaps it was that no-way non-interchangeability why such an outlandish cartridge like the 8x50R was chosen in the first place as an replacement for the prohibited .303 for the colonial Indian market?

...and looking at the state of things, the damn government is still running a colony here.

Interesting info.... learning a lot here.

Happy new year everyone!

Sorry for the interruption... now back to the thread!

[eljefe]

Ha CC, come on in-just the man I was looking for.

Yup Kuduae-makes sense, the part about non interchangeability of the service 303 into the 315-we havent the faintest idea about headspacing and chamber details. CC is a fulltime gunsmith (I think!) amongst other things, so whats your take on the 315 cartridge?
Since its offered only in one load of 244grn bullet, rifling must be fast-any one knows what the rifling pattern is old 2 groove or the newer 5 groove?
Forget esoteric ammo like 8x50 R, even the regular 315 ammo is hard to get at times is what I've heard.Maybe the 315 owners on this board can give us more details?

[penpusher]

Kuduae,

Since you are new to this forum and obviously unaware of the existing scenario in India,I think I should elaborate.Since 1986,there has been a ban on the import of firearms into the country.The poor quality and limited range of firearms produced for the civilian market by the Indian Ordnance Factories and the few private manufacturers who are limited to producing 12 ga single barrel/double barrel shotguns,has meant that there is a huge premium on imported firearms in the country.

Of course,those for which no ammo can be found sell at only a fraction of the price of firearms for which ammunition is available.Unscrupulous dealers,of which there are many,find it an easy way to make a quick and hefty profit,by slightly altering the chamber or the action,to enable the firearm to chamber ammunition that can be found.Most of the Indians,as a result of the severely restricted firearms ownership,are unaware of the dangers inherent in firing such 'converted' firearms.Nor have the experience to spot such 'conversions'.

I have been offered a 8x64 Mauser rifle as 8x57 Mauser(Ahuja Arms,Sector 22,Chandigarh).A dealer was trying to sell a Winchester lever action in 45-90(no ammo) saying that he had about 100 rounds of ammunition of another caliber which could be made to fire in this rifle by slightly altering the chamber(Vishal Arms,Manimajra).

To give you an idea of the profit margins involved.A rifle in 7x64 for which getting ammunition is a problem, typically sells for Rs. 40-45,000/-.However the same rifle,if in 7x57 for which ammunition is there in the market,sells for Rs.1,50,000/- to 1,75,000/-.So many dealers try to sell 7x64 rifles as 7x57 rifles.

[penpusher]

This would give you an idea of what the Lee Enfield is capable of,though the fellow does stumble a couple of times


and this one

[indian]

that was a nice video penpusher i own a no.4 mk.1 and i shoot 30 to 40 rounds at a time but never tried that fast.it looks that i must try it out.....nice fun

[penpusher]

Also,did you notice the thumb placement of the firing hand in the second video?The fellow is obviously used to firing a pistol grip rifle.

[indian]

yes,u r right.i didnt observe it when i saw it before.....

[cottage cheese]

Ha CC, come on in-just the man I was looking for.

Yup Kuduae-makes sense, the part about non interchangeability of the service 303 into the 315-we havent the faintest idea about headspacing and chamber details. CC is a fulltime gunsmith (I think!) amongst other things, so whats your take on the 315 cartridge?
Since its offered only in one load of 244grn bullet, rifling must be fast-any one knows what the rifling pattern is old 2 groove or the newer 5 groove?
Forget esoteric ammo like 8x50 R, even the regular 315 ammo is hard to get at times is what I've heard.Maybe the 315 owners on this board can give us more details?

Eeeeesh... ! Don't frighten me 'jefe.... No full time or anything like that yaar... just a hobbyist fortunate enough to have a gunsmith/shop owner as my close friend. I spend most of my spare time there... earn a bit in the process ...thats about it!

I don't shoot much and am a hopeless shot anyway, so unfortunately I can't have much to say about the .315 and its relatives.

Only experiences are with a couple of blue and tightening jobs one the older IOF ones- which are certainly better than whats current. A couple of shots fired at nothing in particular is about all the firing I've ever done with 315's.

I'm instead, learning a whole lot of interesting stuff about the obscure 315 ammo on this thread.

[kuduae]

Hello Grumpy. I know this does not quite fit into this thread about the .315, but I post it anyhow because it is another example of how crazy laws induce cartridge choice and even development:
Apparently you confused the 8x60S or 8x60 Magnum , as it was called in Austria, and the later 8x68S, which is a real magnum cartridge. The 8x60 is just another cartridge in the 30-06 class ballistically, hardly distinguishable from the British .318 W-R Rimless Nitro-Express, and with the same ballistics with bullets of the same weight. It's former German nickname was "the Versailles treaty cartridge", because after WWI in 1919 The Germans were forbidden to manufacture their military 8x57S as sporting loads for civilian consumption by that so-called "peace treaty". As the 8x57 was the most popular hunting cartridge, German ammo makers designed a strictly sporting cartridge just 3mm/.12" longer so that existing rifles could be rechambered and reproved for the new sporting cartridge, It became very popular in the inter-war years, with lots of new rifles made for it too by Mauser, Mannlicher and others, but was nearly forgotten after WWII, when the ban did not apply anymore and German hunters went back to the 8x57S. The pre -war rifles were destroyed, confiscated or liberated anyhow. But the 8x60S is still popular in France and Belgium. The laws of those countries prohibit civilian use of any cartridge used by any army worldwide at any time! So, not only well known military cartridges are banned, like the 30-06, 308, 223, 303, 8x57, 8x50R Lebel, but also the 7x57/.275, 6,5x54Mannlicher-Schoenauer and so on. Even the old US blackpowder cartridge .45-70 Government is out, while the slightly longer .45-90 is in. I suppose even your .315 IOF would be illegal there, as it is to close to the 8x50R Mannlicher and could be set on fire in a WWI relic M95 Mannlicher rifle.

[kuduae]

An addition to my "non-interchangeability theory":
In a rifle chambered for a .303 case merely necked up to use a .323diam. bullet, you could still shoot a regular .303 cartridge, without accuracy, but close-by disastrous results anyhow. Or, with a little bit of boring, a .323 bullet may be shot through a .311 grove barrel of a regular .303 at least once. The Austrians did just this in WW1: When their manufacturing capacities could not meet the demand for M95s during that "war of attrition", they converted 90 000 captured Russian 7,62x54R, .310 bullet diameter rifles to use their own 8x50R, same case base diameter, but .323 bullet, by rechambering and cutting a generous, almost 3" long leade or throat. Then they issued these rifles to front line troops who fired .323" bullets through .311 groove diameter bores. Certainly not a practice to be recommended nowadays, and the Moisin-Nagant action is much stronger then the Lee-Enfield, but the Austrians reported no increase of casualty numbers from doing so, and British intelligence was certainly aware of this trick.

[Grumpy]

Kuduae, I know what the 8x60S is and consider it a `thumper` in a M-S - the qualification is in my de.scription of the 30-06 where I said "AGAIN, due to the low comb, low toe`. M-S stock design isn`t exactly conducive to negating recoil !
The 8x68 is a `real thumper` in any rifle.......wasn`t it Herman Goerings favourite calibre ?
Yes, we know about the restriction on military calibres in France and Belgium and discussed it quite recently - probably no more than a fortnight ago - and the list of banned calibres was posted. My experience of Belgium is that the authorities there are a lot less stringent in enforcing the military calibre prohibition......or perhaps they`re just less knowledgable.................?
It is my opinion that the prohibition of military calibres in France is responsible for the ( relative ) popularity of the .30R Blaser there. A calibre that I consider ridiculous. It might make sense in a double rifle because of the lack of rimmed .30 cal Magnums but in a bolt action rifle ? Blaser certainly seem to be `pushing` it in their R93.
By the way, the IOF .315 isn`t `my` calibre. I`m a British national and British resident. Half English, half Dutch. Go back far enough and I can even claim some German antecedents.........amongst other things.
I`m a member here because a friend introduced me, because I have Indian friends - and have made more friends here - and because I admire and enjoy the ( majority ) of the members attitudes towards the use and ownership of guns in spite of their extremely restrictive firearms laws.
I hope that you will continue to post on this forum. We don`t have an `authority` on contintal European firearms/calibres currently and only one other member who reloads ( that I can think of anyway. ) Your expertise on those subjects is - and will be - appreciated.

[shahid]

kuduae had sent me another fax which I saw on my return from India yesterday.

A page out of the same Manton 1925 catalouge.

Here the BSA .315, an exact replica of the picture posted by Danish earlier is being advertised as -

A sporting Rifle, based on the British Service rifle. British Made and British design as per British Standars ( Service Standards ) - Whatever this means.

It lists ME and MV figures and leaf sights of 100,200 and 300 yards.

And the price in 1925 ? Indian Rupees 260.

Even in late 1960s when the IOF .315 was introduced it used to cost Rs. 1200 to 1400.

So it is British afterall, not so much popular in the UK but in the colonies.