IOF 315 rifle and cartridge

[kuduae]

Oops-Imade a mistake: of course the 7x57 was called ".275 Rigby" by Rigby's and others, but the Brits apparently were not very cosistent on this. Kynoch called it "7mm (.276) Mauser". Perhaps I was looking too much at their 1925 catalog? And, I never called the 8x50R Mannlicher "8mm (.315) Mannlicher", Kynoch did it! I am very much aware about the problems with the cofusion about the 8x50R, 8x56R M31, 8x56 M-S caetridges, not to mention the several Alder special machine gun cartridges of WWI!
But, then there was many years ago that pre-WWII double rifle by T. Bland, London, which at that time was sort of a puzzle to us. It was marked .315 Cartridge and proofed for a 244 grs bullet. At that time I did not know the Indian .315 nor Manton's catalog nor any British cartridge named .315. After slugging the barrel and making and miking a chamber cast, I found out it was for the 8x50R cartridge, and it regulated acceptably with the then still available Hirtenberg factory load. At that time I thought it must gave been made for a crazy Austrian gentlemen who wanted an English double rifle for his familiar cartridge. The chambers of this rifle were certainly not altered since it left Bland's shop and the chambers conformed to the German proof table dimensions.

[kuduae]

Hi Grumpy, I never claimed that the ".315 IOF" is exactly the same as the 8x50R Mannlicher, I only claim:
There were rifles made in Britain for the 8x50R mannlicher cartidge.
The 8x50R Mannlicher was listed by Kynoch as a sporting cartridge, called a ".315" and loaded to identical ballistics, 244grs at slightly over 2000fps like the .315 IOF.
All other 8mm cartridges known to me are more removed dimensionally from the .315 IOF then the 8x50R Mannlicher: 8x50RLebel:base too thick, more taper; 8x50R type 45 Siamese: base .480" and shoulder too small, longer neck; 8x52 type 66 Siamese: base ok, but smaller shoulder and too long. All other 8mms are more far away dimensionally from the .315 IOF and not one shares the same ballistics.

[Grumpy]

What the hell are you talking about ?
Where did I say that you claimed that the IOF .315 is exactly the same as the 8x50R Mannlicher ? Nor did I say that you called the 8x50R Mannlicher the "8mm Mannlicher" - I said that to Shahid...................
Oh stroll on Shahid, you`re not doing the schitzo thing and talking to yourself - pretending to be two different people - again are you ?
If you are then as far as I`m concerned this subject is closed because I refuse to deal with a flaming lunatic.

[shahid]

IOF cartridges ( .315 ) have been fired and are being fired in the BSA made Lee Enfiled type .315 similar to the picture posted by Danish.

The IOF .315 came from Austro-Bulgarian-Greek Service rifle origin. IOF would have purchased tools to make these cartridges.

It is established by me, I believe so, the origins are quite clear.

If you don;t believe in it go do more research and post here for more knowledge base development - plain and simple.

[Grumpy]

Do you ever listen to/read anything that doesn`t originate from your own mouth you arrogant fool ?
Try reading back through this thread and see how much research has been done over the past few days. What you`ve contributed amounts to minor confirmation of what has already been established.
Good night and good riddance.

[penpusher]

Deleted by me as it has no relevance to the issue at hand.As fare as Shahid goes,his mindless dribble should be confined to the trash bin

[kuduae]

Hi Grumpy,and Shahid,
I am not an "alter ego" of shahid, but a German forester living smack in the middle of Germany. Hunting rifles are my hobby. Besides my job in forest management, I am the wildlife manager for my county, arms consultant to the forestry department of the university of Goettingen and technical editor for the GGCA- www.germanguns.com - so I am used to rely on my own grey cells. By the way, the owner of that ".315" marked double was sent my way by one of our proof house officials and the then production manager of the RWS sporting cartridge department to find out what it may be.
I came to this forum only because I wanted to find out what a ".315 IOF" cartridge really is. It is probably one of the few centerfire sporting cartridge with any distribution that is totally unknown outside the the country of it's origin. Alas, it is not even mentioned in one of the standart reference books like "Cartridges of the World" or "Jagdpatronen". Another example would be the Russian "9.3x64", which is neither the 9,3x64 Brennecke nor the 9,3x62 nor .35 Whelen, which it resembles most. My curiosity ends here. Sorry, Grumpy, but to me it is only an 8x50R Mannlicher of shabby manufacture and quality control!
And: Iwas not talking about intentinally wide chambers in military rifles like the No.4 Lee-Enfields, but of prewar British cartridges made by both Eley and Kynoch, like :500-465, .500-450 No1, .470. .400-350 and so on, that I miked and found them definitely undersize in the body/shoulder dimensions by today's CIP standarts and also to the old British dimensional tables. Another example would be the history of the 12.7x70 Schueler aka .500 Jeffery, the same at first but now two different cartridges, interchangeable only one way, but that is another story.
Goodbye!

[mundaire]

Kuduae, thank you for posting an intro - always a good idea when joining a new forum, it allows others to get a feel of whom they are interacting with... It does seem though that you've been inadvertently caught in the crossfire here - Shahid has been a member here for a while and as you can see from the posts above, some of the older members here hold rather strong opinions in relation to him...

Shahid, since the new forum rules allow for endless bickering - so long as no foul language is used OR any sort of threats issued - do feel free to return the favours bestowed upon you (above)... just putting this here, lest you feel constrained in your response...

Pity though, to see what was becoming an interesting thread disintegrate into bickering...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Vikram]

Hi Kuduae,

Welcome to IFG.Your inputs have been interesting.Thanks for that.

Hallo all,

As we have been discussing, coincidentally, I came across this ad on guntrader.co.uk

A German double rifle chambered in 8X57JR! .318" to be precise. Nice looking rifle too.A calibre very close to what is being discussed.

Best-
Vikram

[Grumpy]

Kuduae, thankyou for the introduction/explanation and please accept my apologies for doubting your actual ( and independent ) existence......and also for involving you in the `spat`directed at Shahid. Obviously you won`t have any idea what provoked that reaction but it`s origins are longstanding and I`m afraid that I have no longer have any tolerance where he is concerned.
Thanks also for for defining the actual rifles to which you were referring as regards oversize chambers. It is a fact that some Nitro Express type rifles had somewhat oversize chambers although why this should be has never been satisfactorarily explained. It also occurs in many BPE rifles but the possible explanation in their case is that the chambers have been lapped to remove pitting - something that has also occurred in many BP shotguns.
I agree that there appears to be no published specifications/dimensions for the IOF .315 - hence the confusion regarding, and interest in the calibre. I have no interest in the matter other than a strictly academic one ...... and because for many Indians members of this forum it is pretty well the only rifle/calibre available. Your de.scription of it being `only an 8x50R Mannlicher of shabby manufacture and quality control` is perhaps a little harsh. I don`t know how individual cartridges compare to the IOFs own parameters for the calibre - if they comply with those specifications it cannot be accused of being shabilly manufactured. I suspect that the `shabbyness` occured many years ago and that the cartridge, whilst based on the 8x50R Mannlicher is now something else entirely as penpusher has suggested. Pretty much the same situation as you refer to re the 12.7x70 Schueler/.500 Jeffery.
I`ve only ever seen one example of the Russian 9.3x64 at a auction many years ago here in the UK. That carried two sets of calibre designations, one original - along with Imperial Tula Armoury markings - and one set applied in either Germany or Austria. I have no idea what the other calibre indicated was.......nor what form the rifle took. I just cannot remember whether it was a double/bolt action/falling block......or anything else.

[Grumpy]

Vikram, if it was the later JRS spec the calibre would be spot on at .323".
The 8x57 JR is the rimmed version of the Mauser 8x57 J - just as the 8x57 JRS is the rimmed version of the 8x57 JS. All are effectively the same cartridge apart from minor differences ( and the rim on two of them ! ) The 8x57 R was specifically designed as a sporting version of the 8x57 for use in break-action rifles.
The Mauser 8x57JR/JRS is very different to the 8x50R ( or 8x56R ) Mannlicher and has no relevence to this thread.

[Vikram]

Thanks for the explanation Grumps.I just found it curious that an 8mmdouble should come up at this time.

Best-
Vikram

[eljefe]

The pics that Danish posted? A clone is available here in Delhi, says the same- 8mm BSA, AND, .315
No magazine cut off, plain jane enfield action, made by BSA.
Wood and action are miles ahead of the IOB version,
Dealer says :
" Its an English made 315, the ORIGINAL, sir!"
Go figure...

[penpusher]

I came across a site that had black and white prints of cartridges(it was a PDF file I believe) and listed their price along with the cartridges,obviously for collectors of cartridges.Had a print of a .303 Magnum BTW.It mentioned the 8mm BSA and also said that it was not to be confused with the cartridge meant for the Austrian service rifle.Now I can't trace it.

If the 8mm BSA is a 303 case necked up to accept a 8mm bullet ,then firing a IOF .315 cartridge in the BSA rifle would be akin to setting off a bomb in the chamber.The only 'saving' grace is that most Indians fire only a couple of rounds from their rifles during the entire period that they own them

[mundaire]

The only 'saving' grace is that most Indians fire only a couple of rounds from their rifles during the entire period that they own them

Handguns, yes! But shotguns and rifles are "working guns" and I'd imagine that they would be put to some use... so if the ammo is not right for the rifle, someone is GOING to get hurt REAL BAD!!

BTW - from what I have gleaned from this thread thus far, is that BSA did ALSO make rifles chambered for the 8x50R mannlicher cartridge... how they differentiated between those (in terms of markings) and the .303 cases necked to fit 8mm projectiles I really don't have a clue. Neither am I sure if any of the .315 BSA's being discussed are chambered for the 8mm BSA or the 8x50R mannlicher round... Also it seems to have been established that IOFB had several production runs of the 8x50R mannlicher ammo decades before they came out with their own .315/ 8mm cartridge/ rifle combo... How am I doing so far? Good student?

Cheers!
Abhijeet