Walther PPK 0.22 LR Manhurin (Made in France)

[Lawman]

So, an IOF .22 revolver with CCI stinger ammo is a better defence-wepon than a IOF .32 Pistol with normal KF ammo. Badshah siad that he fired lot of hiper velocity ammos from his IOF .22 Revolver.

Lawman

[mundaire]

So, an IOF .22 revolver with CCI stinger ammo is a better defence-wepon than a IOF .32 Pistol with normal KF ammo. Badshah siad that he fired lot of hiper velocity ammos from his IOF .22 Revolver.

Lawman

IOF does not recommend even using standard velocity KF ammunition in it's .22 revolver!! In stead they suggest using lower velocity ammunition which is NOT even produced in India!!

It would be foolish in the extreme to use hi-velocity or hyper-velocity ammunition in a gun in which the manufacturer DOES NOT even recommend using standard velocity ammunition...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Ranjeet Singh]

For home defensive use a 6" barrelled .22 revolver loaded with Hyper Velocity hollowpoint ammunition is a better option than the pathetic .32 acp.

Grumpy, could you please elaborate why / how does the barrel length matter, is it for accuracy ?

cheers
Ranjeet

[mundaire]

Ranjeet,

When a cartridge is fired, the rapidly expanding gases push out the bullet from the cartridge into the barrel and continue to accelerate it till it either exits the barrel OR (if the barrel is a long one) then the acceleration will continue until an optimum point is reached, after which the remaining length of the barrel will only serve to slow the bullet down (due to friction). This optimum barrel length varies according to the type of ammunition used. Most pistol powders are fast burning, which means that they provide max acceleration with shorter barrels. Rifle powders on the other hand are slower burning are require longer barrels to provide optimum acceleration.

A longer barrel was mentioned in relation to producing higher muzzle velocities hence higher ME...

It is a myth that longer barrels are more accurate than shorter ones.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[snIPer]

Abhijeet, Longer barrels do help in increasing the range right?

[mundaire]

Abhijeet, Longer barrels do help in increasing the range right?

Sure, in most cases that is... As you can see from my response above - a longer barrel will help the bullet to accelerate to a higher exit velocity (muzzle velocity), but ONLY up to a point. This point is sort of the optimum point for that particular ammunition wherein the maximum acceleration provided by rapidly expanding gases (from the burning powder) is reached. After this point, any lengthening of the barrel will NO LONGER accelerate the bullet, and in fact the friction of the barrel will begin to act on the bullet, slowing it somewhat.

A higher muzzle velocity will obviously help carry the bullet further...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Ranjeet Singh]

Thanks Abhijit,

I had read about shot guns to buy the one in the longer barrels for ensuring that the powder burns completely and also aids in pointing.

However I was told that these days the powders are very fast burning and a short length would suffice.

Now i can understand why 6'' for high speed bullets which Grumpy suggests.

Thanks for that

Cheers
Ranjeet

[snIPer]

Thanks Abhijeet

[mundaire]

Ranjeet,

Pistols and shotguns both use relatively fast burning powder... In fact many home loaders/ reloaders use the same powder to load their pistol and shotgun ammo...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Grumpy]

As Abhijeet says, there is an optimum length of barrel for a particular powder/calibre combination to allow for a full burn of the powder and for the maximum possible velocity to be achieved.
In the case of the .22lr that length is around 16". As .22 lr ammunition is `dual-purpose` - ie intended for use in both rifles and handguns - that optimum `burn` is not achieved in a handgun so maximum velocity cannot be obtained. It is, therefore, sensible to use a handgun with as long a barrel as possible. The CCI Stinger `hyper` velocity cartridge will produce 191 ft lbs ME from a rifle barrel but because maximum velocity is not possible in a handgun that figure is reduced to somewhere in the region of 130-140 ft lbs from a 6" barrelled pistol - about the same as a `high` velocity cartridge/bullet will produce from a rifle barrel HOWEVER it has to be remembered that a high velocity .22 round will produce only c. 105-110 ft lbs ME from a 6" barrelled handgun.
It is quite common in the UK for hunting .22 rifle barrels to be shortened to as little as 12" in order to produce a very portable rifle - especially as moderators are invariably used which add to the overall length. Accuracy rarely suffers and is sometimes improved because of the increased barrel rigidity imparted by shortening. The drop in velocity/ME is of little consequence as the available energy is more than adequate to deal with the intended quarry - Rabbits.
Mack The Knife has discussed this matter more than once and - again - Abhijeet is right in saying that very long barrels are not necessary for optimum accuracy.

Abhijeet is also correct in saying that shotgun cartridges use fast burning powders and that those powders are often used to load handgun cartridges - or vice versa. Full `burn` in a shotgun is achieved with a barrel length of around 20". The reason that sporting and clay shooting shotgun barrels are considerably longer than this is that short barrelled shotguns handle extremely badly - they move far too quickly. The extra length helps to `steady` the gun.

"Abhijeet, Longer barrels do help in increasing the range right?"

Er....No. Range is a direct consequence of velocity so once maximum velocity is achieved there is little point in increasing barrel barrel length. Increasing the length just increases the friction on the bullet which actually decreases velocity. There is sense in lengthening the barrel to improve the steadyness of a rifle - especially target rifles but other factors come into effect with those also. The fact is that .22lr target rifles use low velocity ammunition at short range but need to be as steady as possible. A short barrelled .22 lr just couldn`t be held still. Even so, .22 lr target rifles nowadays use maximum barrel lengths in the order of 24" - some even have 22" barrels. Much shorter than the c. 30 inch barrels that were common just a few years ago.

The belief that rifle barrels need to be very long in order to achieve maximum velocity/range originates from when black powder was the only available propellant. Black powder burns at a much slower rate than nitro cellulose powders ( in fact the nature of the `burn` is quite different between the two types but that is irrelevent to this discussion ) and so VERY long barrels were required for optimum performance - 36" and longer barrels were not uncommon on target rifles. This wasn`t immediately appreciated and rifles - military, sporting and target - continued to be produced with long barrels for a while after the introduction of `smokeless` powders but it was eventually realised that the extra length was not only unnecessary but also detrimental to both performance and handling. The erroneous belief that very long barrels are necessary for optimum velocity/accuracy/range still persists however.

As an aside, I might mention that one of my hobbies is sporterising old BSA 12/15 Martini .22 lr target rifles ( as it happens I`m currently working on a Martini actioned BSA International Mk II. ) These have 29 1/2" heavy, tapered barrels which I cut back to no more than 22" - one I even cut back to 16". NOT ONCE has the accuracy been affected - in fact, as I ( obviously ) have to recrown and always fit a moderator, accuracy has often improved. ( Moderators often improve accuracy AND reduce recoil. ) That these elderly rifles consistently knock out sub 1" 100 yard groups is something that I find quite delightful.

[Edmond]

According to serial number, this is a MR made around 1950.

[Edmond]

Here are some Manurhin pictures

[Edmond]

[Edmond]

[Edmond]