Sneak Preview - National Compressed Air Rifle/Pistol

All posts related to air-guns (air-rifles, airsoft, air-pistols, air-guns etc.).
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nagarifle
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Post by nagarifle » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:02 pm

hi penpusher

lets face it , the rifle in the pics looks good 8) , and i would not mind having one of those. we have to eccourge any one who goes out and builds a rifle. looks arnt everthing would u not agree? (have u ever wonder why ugley guyes get good looking lesss? :lol: :evil: )performnce is everthing, lets wait and see how the air rifle perfomes. if its good lets sale one to Grumpy. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

well i am off to change my knickers before Grumpy throws a wobbly :lol: :lol: night night

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Post by Yaj » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:06 pm

nagarifle";p="34476 wrote: sorry mate, :cry: it may look like poo but its our poo :oops: and like it or not mate its all we have going for us here. What i am glad about is that we have Dr. Shirsat who is trying to do something to change the face of our homegrown poo :D . would u not agree that its a start :D :D still as they say "don't judge the book by its cover" :lol:

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Re: Sneak Preview - National Compressed Air Rifle/Pistol

Post by Grumpy » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:16 am

nagarifle, you don`t have to be sorry...........Unless you have something specific to be sorry about of course. I`d also like to point out that it wasn`t me who said it looked like poo in the first place.
As for your nationalistic statement that "it may look like poo but its our poo" that surely is a recipe for mediocrity: Put up with poo and you`ll get poo.
Quid pro quo.

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Post by nagarifle » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:46 am

hi Grumpy
ok it not you who said poo first, for implying that, i am sorry :cry: . And you do have a point "that surely is a recipe for mediocrity" :wink:

since i am from over there and living over here, i have to take a stand for someone trying to produce a decent air rifle, amid all the red tape etc which we all are aware of.

let the first lot come out and c how they perform. even then i think we should let the good Dr. know where the improvement needs to be made. :idea: :idea:

as i can c, we the people of the mystical eastern lands will have to use our eastern charm and persuade you in to buying the air rifle. (if it turns out to be poo) :lol: :lol: Mission set!

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Post by shutzen » Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:24 am

HI! My experiences with the IHP competiton air guns have been complete nightmares. First was a co2 .177 AR - I had decent accuracy for half the match and then needed a refill and your zero went haywire after that cuz the pressure changed - one had to literally become a mechanic to keep it going.

Second was the pneumatic .177 AR - rotten piece of junk. From day one it leaked pressure from the chamber and if the shooter delayed his shot the point of impact changed dramatically due to decrease in pressure. Then it went on to loose so much pressure that the very first match it went to we could not use it and had to waste one year to wait for the next state match. Major difference here was this was non user repairable and had to be sent to factory for repairs.Sent it for repairs thrice through courier and was charged between 700 - 1400 for repairs each time and the thing never ever worked properly. Did no use it for any comp. despite best efforts to make it work.
The new cylynider model will surely be having lesser pressure than the FWB and walthers and I am sure will be a nightmare to use. If this consultant being used is the same dude who was earlier working on the manual pump pneumatic he deserves a kick on his b***. My advice is dont waste your money on this junk - even a second hand FWB or walther will give you better results and accuracy.
This is from my practical experiences with the product. Sevral other shooters I know have gone through similar experiences so your experience could be different but do ask around before blowing up your money on this junk.
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Post by TenX » Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:30 am

Some quick adds:
The Doc has fantastic limitations of using only existing machinery at the IHP, which are almost 4 decades old.
Next, there is no scope for importing any part at all.
Copying new guns are also not part of the R & D, as procuring them is not in budget.
The Doc is a full time Homeopath in Mumbai and has to co-ordinate with the IHP team at Ahmedabad.
Almost all decisions are wonderfully red-taped, with very slow progress on taking required measures.
All new changes and designs are to be made by the Doc alone, presented for approval, a patient wait, and then a persuaded go-ahead.
These are some facts that I understood over the two day-visits I made.
Now, with all this, the good Doc still delivers his two-pills-for-the-night. Matter of fact, when he first launched the first Pneumatic a few years back, the response was initially slow, but as of now, there is a three month waiting period for this. I could not pick up one on my visit, although I did test them. Bulky and not too nice to feel, as a shooter, but at an amazing low price of about 7K, I decided to pick one up. But the waiting period was too much - three months.
Lets face it. We have a billion population, and there is certainly a huge demand for home-grown potatoes. But we have very few farmers to grow them. Decade old Companies dont take quick measures with their 'Santhust' attitude. Few passion-gunners actually work on R & D to create somethign new, apart from improving what they own. More importantly, we dont have farmers growing stuff for the rest of the populace.
Somewhere, after decent starts like this, the demand of the consumer market will rise over produce (like what is hapenning with the Pneumatic Air Rifle), and companies will re-think on making new models (like the new Compressed Air), and soon, a whole lot of others will follow suit. I think, that in the next few years, we will have wonderful copy-cats, who will follow the Doc's models or try duplicating imported ones, for very affordable prices.

The same hapenned with Shooting jackets. 7 years ago, it was only Mhow making them at cheap prices of below 2K. Only National team shooters had imported and dearer ones (around 50K). By this time, a good demand had grown indoor and then, 2 years later, came a couple of companies who copied the imported ones (like Capapie and another name I forgot). This surely had a couple of years' lag on the imported ones, in terms of material and fit. Now (6 years later), Anschutz jackets cost a whooting 70K, but Indian ones cost about one third the price, and trust me, the material and fitting is almost as good - Its made very accurately with Imported material, the same that Anschutz and others use. I have tried them all, and seriously think that the Indian ones are worth their price. (One can change three Indian jackets for the price of one imported one)
Now, remove 'jackets' and replace 'Air Rifle' from the above para, and that will be what we see in the coming few years.

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Post by TenX » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:10 am

And also, to mention, the good Doc is usually all open on any feedback from all angles. And is one of the very few down-to-earth beings who accepts his errors in design and takes all measures to correct them.
I am sure even Anschutz and Feinwerkbau required these feedback when they began their success stories.
All that I am looking at is an angle where a much bigger Indian market will suffice with Indian makes, at affordable prices too. Might not be now, but with good involvement from shooters and proper feedback, I am sure we are all working for something good.
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Post by nagarifle » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:47 am

hi TenX
you have a very good points, if this rifle works and the good Dr. as u say willing to listen to feedback, then we have a man who is willing to give the shooters what they need with less cost. A good air rifle. even in the past IHP have produced junk. as u say with outdated mechenary you can only get outdated junk.

i think that we should encourage the Dr. from the start to give the shooters what they want. :wink: and if we just put down every home grown potatoes , then we will have no farmers who want to grow anything, and we will have to pay over the top price from overseas. :( :( :(

i believe that we in the forum have enough understanding to know what the average shooter wants. Also what type of air rifle we need. even if some ideas are borrowed from others. why invent the wheel all over again? lets improve it so the cost comes down for us all.

thats my paises worth.
nagarifle

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Post by shutzen » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:15 pm

HI! Dont forget this dude the "Good Doc" poor design resulted in my son losing one year in a competitiive sport as his brand new rifle which I bought for Rs. 13000/- (It cost that when I bought it) Now if its for 7K god help us cuz half price and better quality????? donno. FYI the rifle failed within 3 days of practice and he had to miss the match as it stopped working totally. Man 3 repairs return to factory couldnt fix this piece of junk. Later on my neice and nephews borrowed it to take part in state shooting and even being the novices they were they could also figure out that if you took long aim the gun made a different lower intensity sound- casused by pressure leak from the chamber.

The guyz had the audacity to fix peep sights on these rifles for ISSF matches, I cant find anything more hilarious!

If IHP simply goes for a technology transfer or buys out some old design it will be better than whatever can be locally done byt the "Good Doc" with his sugar sweetened pills. Why should we want to reinvent the wheel when we simply have to adopt a successful design and only concentrate on shooting rather than become a mechanic/competitior.
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Post by nagarifle » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:28 pm

Hi shutzen
believe me i would be cheesed off as well, if i was in ur place as i know that to be a top class shooter is no easy or cheap task.

i hope that the good Dr. pays a little more attation to shooters request , wants and comments.

what u say about using old design i agree with if they work use them. if the IHP thinks rightly they should know that they are in a position to take the shooting industry to next level here in India.

still as they say small thinking leads to small doing. :cry:

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Post by Mack The Knife » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:42 pm

Shutzen,

Dr. Shirsat designs the airguns. IHP manufactures them. He also bases his designs keeping in mind the limitations that IHP must be imposing on him - cost and ease of manufacturing.

I know Shirsat personally and have seen the airguns he has made for his own personal use with his own hands and these are a far cry from what IHP produce.

So if you must berate someone, berate the manufacturer.

Mack The Knife

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Re: Sneak Preview - National Compressed Air Rifle/Pistol

Post by penpusher » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:58 pm

In India there are no proper teaching facilities for gunsmiths.There are no 'trained' gunsmiths in India.Designing of firearms/air arms is something that nobody has any experience of or the ability to do it.Even the IOFB resorted to copying other rifles when it came to designing the 5.56 rifle for the Indian Army.

What is preventing the IHP from getting an air rifle designed from an expert from abroad or from buying the designs for one?As far as machinery for the manufacture of air rifles is concerned,most are machines used in precision manufacture and so can be easily bought.Many,I am sure are being produced in India now.

IHP is like the typical family run Indian companies, more concerned about churning out stuff at the cheapest price possible as long as it sells.Consider this,if the IHP air rifle,which is considered to be the best Indian made air rifles,is so lousy how bad the others would be.

Also old machinery does not mean that good stuff can't be built with them.Most of the old Pratt & Whitney rifling machines are still being used to make quality rifle barrel.However this applies only if the machines were 'quality' machines to begin with.Considering IHP,I don't think that this is the case.

The limited number of guns that they are allowed to produce, are also cited as an excuse by Indian gun manufacturers as being a chief reason in their inability to modernize their manufacturing facilities.However,limited no's do not prevent many manufacturers from churning out decent stuff in other countries.In Spain too they have these sort of govt. mandated limits,but still they are able to make decent stuff.The Indian gun manufacturers seem to think that all that they need to do is to install some machines and they will automatically start producing 'quality' stuff.However this is not applicable here.

It is the mindset of the Indian manufacturers that has to change.

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Post by dev » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:10 pm

I have been following IHP for years and bought my first model 35 about 12 years ago. There is a famous toy shop (Ram Chander & Sons) near Odeon cinema which used to be an exclusive distributor. In fact the owner had worked closely with IHP when it had a tie up with Hammerli. He was totally disgusted with the way the company had degenerated and now no longer pushes them.

Sadly, the Indian Humpe Pipes treats its Airgun division like a step child. Why I loved my rifle was that it grouped very well and though the trigger was hard, in those days I thought that it was as good as it could get.

The frustrating thing is that there is so much this company could do with so many of us rooting for a decent air rifle. Seems like the Doc is the only one who can get anything done but he has miles of red tape to cut inside the company.

But for now it seems like the company shall persist in shooting itself on the foot.

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Post by nagarifle » Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:59 pm

it would seem to me that the only option for us is that:

1/ the Forum goes into import of air rifle.
2/ Forum members get together and form a company and start producing what the shooters need.

any takers :)
nagarifle

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Post by shutzen » Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:17 pm

HI! IHP/ The "DOC" "Golibaaz " is giving excuses - mithi golis that he has to work with 3-4 decades old MC's - what a load of bull . He is not in a firearm factory where very strict controls on machinery are in place but in airgun/competition airgun factory. We are talking simple pneumatics and there is no dearth of good sources of CNC jobbers and silicon/rubber seal and ring manufacturers from whom all the critical parts can be outsourced. I am sure then a better product will be delivered provided the design is sound.
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