defensive loads for shotguns

[eljefe]

With buck shot not being manufactured anymore, shotgun owners are limited to using birdshot as an all purpose round.
I am still searching for info on using frangible projectiles or something MORE lethal than birdshot for home defense.
Pal of mine suggests that if a regular steel or Stainless steel 'disc' of 12.5mm dia and 12.5mm height is cut into 4 sections like a pie and two such discs (total of 8 pcs)reloaded into a reduced charge 2 inch shell in a nylon or teflon sabot, may work well (with all the edges offered!)
The nylon sabot I guess will have to be bought in .75 inch dia and reduced in a lathe to appropriate size?
I have no experience of steel shot, leave alone steel 'bunker busters' as this sounds to me!
Any inputs ?
Best
Axx

[mundaire]

Asif,

Most shotguns available in India are very old and not designed to take "steel" shot... if used, it can cause serious damage to the gun and/ or injury...

I would imagine the same applies to projectiles as well... Have heard of some idiots repacking shotshells with steel ball bearings... err, wish 'em luck!

There is a private manufacturer - I think Shaktiman brand, which manufactures a kind of shotshell with a hollow cylindrical metal projectile that upon being fired, separates into 4 projectiles - thus circumventing the silly legal prohibition on shotshells with multiple large diameter shot/ projectiles.

Also, may I point out that repacking ammo in this manner, sounds quite illegal... if it were legal - one could always make ones own buckshot and repack that in shotshells, not a particularly hard process, unless you are gunning for near perfect spherical shot... a primitive but effective method involves using wheel balancing weight alloy and a steel sieve with largish holes...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[mundaire]

A google search on Lead shot India, gives us the name of this company - amongst others...

Dunno, but maybe you could contact them and some of the other suppliers/ manufacturers of lead shot/ balls. Lead shot in of itself should not be a problem as it has many uses asides from use in shotshells...

Also check out this article - Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition and this one - 12 Gauge Exotic Ammo. You might find them of interest

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[mundaire]

I guess my advice on home made shot was a little over-optimistic as this page reveals:

Shot Tower Historical State Park

Almost 200 years old, this fortresslike stone tower provided a complex but effective way to make lead shot for frontier hunters and adventurers and for the Confederacy during America's Civil War. The problem was how to make the shot perfectly round. Designers figured they could drop bits of hot lead from a height and it would cool into round balls as it fell. But two problems arose. One, wind currents could make the balls spin and cool unevenly. And two, the cooling lead would flatten when it hit bottom.

Thus the Shot Tower, which stands 75 feet high, with stone walls that are 2.5 feet thick. Beneath the floor of the tower, another 75-foot shaft was dug straight down by hand. The lower vertical shaft stopped just above river level, with a horizontal tunnel that led to the river.

In the top of the tower, 150 feet above the river level, molten lead was poured through porous sieves that shaped the projectiles. Tiny globs of hot lead in a 150-foot free-fall cooled uniformly, and were cushioned by a kettle of water at the bottom. Few of these old shot towers have survived wars, floods, and the ravages of time. Following renovation in 1968, the New River Shot Tower was designated a National Historic Mechanical Engineering Landmark by the American Society of Mechanical Engineers.

A 150 foot tower isn't exactly a cost effective means of production!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Mark]

What lethal range are you wanting to obtain here, as far as possible?

I tend to look at shotguns as close range/inside the house type of weapons. #8 shot is all I ever thought about using, it will work for the distances needed. If I had to carry it outside, then I'd go with the largest size I could legally use, #4 it probably sounds like in your case. Main thing is if you are in a city, you want whatever does not hit your target to run out of energy before it hits someone else. I've killed wild dogs at over 100 yards with buckshot, but at that distance you would not be protecting yourself from a criminal.



Also, regarding the making of shot you can read this thread:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=15776

[mundaire]

Great link Mark! But the discussion is all to do with birdshot and no one there seems to be making their own buckshot, which is what Asif seems to be interested in...

Since the 80's shotshells loaded with buckshot have been banned in India - don't ask me why, I can't think of any explanation for most of the asinine (firearms related) laws that we are saddled with here!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[eljefe]

Thanks All,
thought about the 2 disc 'slug' in lieu of not having access to buckshot...idea sounds do able, what
Axx

[Mark]

Abhijeet,

Buckshot here is typically cast in moulds, at least when made by individuals. The most common size here is O, which is 31 caliber (.310 inch, about 11 mm). A simple way of manufacturing these would be to make a mould out of 2 wood blocks and cast them using melted down wheel weights.
Obviously wood does not last as long as aluminum, brass, or steel but is still quite serviceable for a while.

Edited to add- does anyone use split shot fishing sinkers in India? http://www.hiltsmolds.com/SplitShotMolds.htm

[eljefe]

Mark,
Wanted to use reduced charge , 2" loads for home defense.Penetration...and an easy handling shotty
Not keen on a fractured wrist!
Best
Axx

[penpusher]

Would love to have those 12ga exploder slugs.

Take care,
penpusher

[Grumpy]

I`d like to point out that so-called `steel` shot is actually made of iron and that unless your gun is proved for `steel` shot its` use will cause barrel damage very quickly. Steel is even harder than iron so barrel damage is even more probable if cut up steel cylinders or ball bearings are used. Another problem with messing about with cartridges is that you have no idea what the pressures created might be.....a blown-up barrel is likely to be far more dangerous to the person firing the gun than the person the gun is aimed at.
I fail to see the logic of looking for more lethal projectiles whilst using a reduced charge - you want to kill intruders but only so they`re dead rather than very dead ? BTW, 2" 12-Bore cartridges are horribly expensive ..... and difficult to find - I should know as one of my favourite game guns is a 2" lightweight and I have to buy Lyalvale Express 2" cartridges by the 1,000.
It was found in Vietnam by the US troops who entered the Vietcong tunnel systems that the most effective load was No 7 shot for the very close range shooting necessitated. No 4 or No 5 shot ought to be more than adequate for use within a house. Just try a pattern test at 12-15 ft to see just how adequate ............

[Mack The Knife]

Edited to add- does anyone use split shot fishing sinkers in India? http://www.hiltsmolds.com/SplitShotMolds.htm

I have used them Mark. Since I get readily available shot (.38 to .40), I hold them in a bench vice and then cut a slit using a hacksaw. They aren't easy to pinch close though and I prefer using spiral wound lead wire, in various gauges.

Thanks for the link though. Any other company you would recommend for making plain lead balls?

Mack The Knife

[mundaire]

Since we use British shot sizes in India, O/ OO buck was getting confusing... might have been confusing others too... So dug out this table on the Sellier Bellot website - might come in handy when comparing American and/ or European shot sizes to the British ones used in India.

So "OO" buckshot is SG (dia 8.43mm/ .33) and "OOO" buckshot is LG (dia 9.14mm/ .36).

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Mack The Knife]

Just in the nick of time, Abhijeet.

I was under the impression that LG were in the .38" to .40" sizes.

Thanks.

Mack The Knife

[mehulkamdar]

Frankly, hitting any attacker in the face or upper body with a 12 bore shotgun loaded even with No 7 1/2 or 8 shot is certain to incapacitate him very fast at typical home/home garden distances in India. Yes, if you want to hammer him harder, use No 4s. I really can't see the need for buckshot especially as you may have some overpenetration if you use it. If you really want to down an attacker, ball should work without trouble, provided you don't mind the considerably greater recoil. Birdshot would be fine even if the lady of the house who is not a very enthusiastic shooter decides to use the shotgun, and, even a boy or girl who is 12 years old or older would be able to use it without trouble.

JMHO - but I would suggest that you guys try it with gunny sacks loaded with a mix of sawdust and hay at different distances and decide for yourselves.

Cheers!