Changing the shot in a shotgun cartridge
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penpusher
Re: Changing the shot in a shotgun cartridge
Just Googled for shot towers.The 'drop' is pretty dramatic .No 30ft shot tower anywhere.
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shahid
The BRI type sabot slug cannot be fired from a smoothbore ? I guess it can be. When the slug leaves the muzzle it is still encased in the sleeve, the sleeve seperates from the slug 5 to 12 yards from the barrel, so how will a rifled barrel help it ?
One of the most sucessful development to fire Brenekke type slugs is a paradox barrel. It has been reintroduced in 2007 by H & H.
Mr. John Stevenson, currently Director Sales of H & H was kind enough to send me a copy of the reintroduced - The Field magazine by H & H which has an article about hunting wild boards in Czeck republic with these guns last year.
As for the round punkin ball or the old Eley lethal ball, forget it. It will miss a blue bull at 50 yards because of small vital target area at times. This is from accounts of old days when blue bulls were hunted in India. And effective range is 50 yards, you don't exactly get blue bulls shaking hands with a hunter at 20 yards.
Original question - Yes no. 1 shot of 30 grams or 32 grams or whatever original load can easily be changed for any shot from AAAA, BB to no 2,4,7 8 9, 9 1/2 or 12 or whatever size but the quality of shots should be good and they should be proper chilled lead shots or they will not pattern well. THe rate of deformation of cast lead shots vs. chilled shot will be very high. About 20 % shots that graze the barrels on their way out will be deformed flat from one side, almost shiny and of course the ballstics and penetration will be terrible.
I saw some freak tests being conducted.
Recently shot pheasants being suspended from kites at 30 yards distance and no. 6 shot being fired, then the autoposy. THe results were quite useful, better than gel tests.
One of the most sucessful development to fire Brenekke type slugs is a paradox barrel. It has been reintroduced in 2007 by H & H.
Mr. John Stevenson, currently Director Sales of H & H was kind enough to send me a copy of the reintroduced - The Field magazine by H & H which has an article about hunting wild boards in Czeck republic with these guns last year.
As for the round punkin ball or the old Eley lethal ball, forget it. It will miss a blue bull at 50 yards because of small vital target area at times. This is from accounts of old days when blue bulls were hunted in India. And effective range is 50 yards, you don't exactly get blue bulls shaking hands with a hunter at 20 yards.
Original question - Yes no. 1 shot of 30 grams or 32 grams or whatever original load can easily be changed for any shot from AAAA, BB to no 2,4,7 8 9, 9 1/2 or 12 or whatever size but the quality of shots should be good and they should be proper chilled lead shots or they will not pattern well. THe rate of deformation of cast lead shots vs. chilled shot will be very high. About 20 % shots that graze the barrels on their way out will be deformed flat from one side, almost shiny and of course the ballstics and penetration will be terrible.
I saw some freak tests being conducted.
Recently shot pheasants being suspended from kites at 30 yards distance and no. 6 shot being fired, then the autoposy. THe results were quite useful, better than gel tests.
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Grumpy
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Re: Changing the shot in a shotgun cartridge
penpusher, Shot doesn`t have to be perfectly round to pattern well - in fact Tungsten `Hevishot` is noticiably ovoid ( `Teardrop` ) in form but patterns exceptionally well........except that the patterns `blow` with anything above half choke and are better with 1/4-3/8 choke maximum. Because of the teardrop form the shot orientates itself very rapidly with the `heavy ( large diameter ) end forward. Although shot does not have to be perfectly round it does have to be evenly formed - shot which is flattened or irregular in shape because of damage or oxidisation patterns extremely poorly.
Choke restrictions are relative to the actual bore and not to a nominal/notional bore - eg, Full choke is 30 thou plus in a .744" `over-bore/ .729" `nominal`bore or .710 bore 12-bore. In reality a fixed amount of choke is slightly greater when used in a smaller diameter bore because it represents a greater percentage restriction. In practice though it is of no consequence.
The generally accepted amount amount of choke - in thousanths of an inch - for a given amount of choke is as follows:
True Cylinder or Skeet .. 0
Improved Cylinder ........ 5 thou
1/4 Choke..................... 10 thou
1/2............................... 20 thou
3/4............................... 30 thou
Full............................... 40 thou
In practice the actual amount of restriction tends to be somewhat less - eg 1/4 Choke is more likely to be 8 thou, 1/2 choke 15 thou and Full Choke anything of 30 thou and above. 40 thou would be considered `Super Full`.
`True cylinder` is often bored with a 2-3 thou constriction as that tiny amount of choke can help to control the pattern quality.
The term `Pattern` is too often used to describe pattern density rather than the pattern proper. Pattern density refers to the percentage amount of shot contained within a fixed diameter - eg a 60" circle at 40 yards. `Pattern` refers to the quality of the the pattern produced. A good pattern has each shot as equally distanced from its neighbors as possible, with no `holes` and no clumps of shot.
Pattern quality is far more important than pattern density as it allows you to kill more birds - feathered or clay - than a dense pattern.....especially a dense pattern with damn greats holes and clumps of Shot within it.
Shot towers are tall - a drop of 60 feet ( and more ) used to be common - however short towers of around 30 feet ( or less ) are now becoming the norm ......... but these incorporate fans/chillers to increase the cooling rate and sometimes to slow the rate of descent also.
Pure lead is not desireable for Shot manufacture as it is too soft and is deformed/damaged extremely easily which ruins patterns. Pure lead also flattens too easily when it strikes the target which creates an inefficent transfer of energy through lack of penetration. Shot is, therefore, hardened with the introduction of a hardening agent, usually Antimony, at a rate of between around 2% and 7% depending on the proposed application. Shot for clay shooting is harder than that for game shooting for example.
There is no problem with replacing shot of one size with an equal quantity - IN WEIGHT - of shot another size as the pressures produced will be similar. Increasing the weight of the shot charge will increase the pressures produced which could cause problems......and could result in serious damage.......to the gun and the shooter !
Shot should NEVER be compressed when loading a cartridge.
The bullet `slug`form for the Paradox guns was of a reasonably conventional bullet type however a considerable amount of time and effort went into their developement to provide optimum accuracy. The Paradox guns were initially produced many years before the introduction of the Brenneke slug. The use of Brenneke type slugs in Paradox guns nowadays is both necessary and advisable as a) No one is currently producing Paradox slugs and B) Because the slug forms produced nowadays are less than optimum for use in a Paradox gun the stability of the Brenneke type slugs is advantageous.
A Sabot is very closely formed about about the bullet and engages with the barrel rifling just as a bullet would, thus imparting spin. Until the sabot falls away from the projectile the composite form is effectively one unit.
Sabotted bullets are not only produced for use in rifled shotguns but are also manufactured for use in centrefire rifles. 30-06 `Accellerator` cartridges, for example, utilise a sabotted .22 55 gr bullet with a muzzle velocity of well over 4,000 FPS.
Sabotted bullets are also quite commonly use in muzzle loading rifles.
Choke restrictions are relative to the actual bore and not to a nominal/notional bore - eg, Full choke is 30 thou plus in a .744" `over-bore/ .729" `nominal`bore or .710 bore 12-bore. In reality a fixed amount of choke is slightly greater when used in a smaller diameter bore because it represents a greater percentage restriction. In practice though it is of no consequence.
The generally accepted amount amount of choke - in thousanths of an inch - for a given amount of choke is as follows:
True Cylinder or Skeet .. 0
Improved Cylinder ........ 5 thou
1/4 Choke..................... 10 thou
1/2............................... 20 thou
3/4............................... 30 thou
Full............................... 40 thou
In practice the actual amount of restriction tends to be somewhat less - eg 1/4 Choke is more likely to be 8 thou, 1/2 choke 15 thou and Full Choke anything of 30 thou and above. 40 thou would be considered `Super Full`.
`True cylinder` is often bored with a 2-3 thou constriction as that tiny amount of choke can help to control the pattern quality.
The term `Pattern` is too often used to describe pattern density rather than the pattern proper. Pattern density refers to the percentage amount of shot contained within a fixed diameter - eg a 60" circle at 40 yards. `Pattern` refers to the quality of the the pattern produced. A good pattern has each shot as equally distanced from its neighbors as possible, with no `holes` and no clumps of shot.
Pattern quality is far more important than pattern density as it allows you to kill more birds - feathered or clay - than a dense pattern.....especially a dense pattern with damn greats holes and clumps of Shot within it.
Shot towers are tall - a drop of 60 feet ( and more ) used to be common - however short towers of around 30 feet ( or less ) are now becoming the norm ......... but these incorporate fans/chillers to increase the cooling rate and sometimes to slow the rate of descent also.
Pure lead is not desireable for Shot manufacture as it is too soft and is deformed/damaged extremely easily which ruins patterns. Pure lead also flattens too easily when it strikes the target which creates an inefficent transfer of energy through lack of penetration. Shot is, therefore, hardened with the introduction of a hardening agent, usually Antimony, at a rate of between around 2% and 7% depending on the proposed application. Shot for clay shooting is harder than that for game shooting for example.
There is no problem with replacing shot of one size with an equal quantity - IN WEIGHT - of shot another size as the pressures produced will be similar. Increasing the weight of the shot charge will increase the pressures produced which could cause problems......and could result in serious damage.......to the gun and the shooter !
Shot should NEVER be compressed when loading a cartridge.
The bullet `slug`form for the Paradox guns was of a reasonably conventional bullet type however a considerable amount of time and effort went into their developement to provide optimum accuracy. The Paradox guns were initially produced many years before the introduction of the Brenneke slug. The use of Brenneke type slugs in Paradox guns nowadays is both necessary and advisable as a) No one is currently producing Paradox slugs and B) Because the slug forms produced nowadays are less than optimum for use in a Paradox gun the stability of the Brenneke type slugs is advantageous.
A Sabot is very closely formed about about the bullet and engages with the barrel rifling just as a bullet would, thus imparting spin. Until the sabot falls away from the projectile the composite form is effectively one unit.
Sabotted bullets are not only produced for use in rifled shotguns but are also manufactured for use in centrefire rifles. 30-06 `Accellerator` cartridges, for example, utilise a sabotted .22 55 gr bullet with a muzzle velocity of well over 4,000 FPS.
Sabotted bullets are also quite commonly use in muzzle loading rifles.
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shahid
What about my question - when a sabot slug is encased in plastic will rifling help it ?
On pattering - it is charge density and strike pattern combination that determines an effective kill.
A good shotgun is designed to spread 2/3 of its shot charge above the line of sight and within a 30 inch circle at 30 yards.
Recent developments by Dynamite Noble - GECO Rottweil is an innovation in the shot cup called spreader device which increases the coverage area of shots in the killing zone leading to better knock down results.
Spreader technology is also gaining popularity in sporting clays and trap shooting with some makes of cartridges.
On pattering - it is charge density and strike pattern combination that determines an effective kill.
A good shotgun is designed to spread 2/3 of its shot charge above the line of sight and within a 30 inch circle at 30 yards.
Recent developments by Dynamite Noble - GECO Rottweil is an innovation in the shot cup called spreader device which increases the coverage area of shots in the killing zone leading to better knock down results.
Spreader technology is also gaining popularity in sporting clays and trap shooting with some makes of cartridges.
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Grumpy
- Old Timer
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Re: Changing the shot in a shotgun cartridge
"What about my question - when a sabot slug is encased in plastic will rifling help it ? "
"A Sabot is very closely formed about about the bullet and engages with the barrel rifling just as a bullet would, thus imparting spin. Until the sabot falls away from the projectile the composite form is effectively one unit."
That is the answer to your question that I gave above.
Try listening ( and reading ) instead of talking - you`ll learn a lot more.
`Spreader` technology has been around for some time and utilised by various cartridge manufacturers. It is just another in a long line of techniques designed to spread the shot as widely and quickly as possible whilst maintaining a good pattern and, as such, is primarily designed for competive Skeet shooting.
Earlier/alternative techniques include : `Tula` type chokes ; shaped wads, rifled chokes ( designed not for use with slugs but to disperse the shot ) and `Stripper` chokes which have protrusions which strip the shot cup from the shot at the muzzle.
The 1/3 -2/3 placement of shot is utilised in game guns - not dedicated clay guns.
The number of shot contained within any sized circle depends upon the chokes utilised, the amount ( number ) of shot contained within a cartridge and the design of the cartridge - ie whether a felt wad or plastic shot-cup is utilised. The ideal pattern is that as described above - Frankly, hitting a ( say ) Pheasant with the best part of 200 shot pellets ( if there are 300 in the cartridge ) will render it totally inedible...........unless you like crunchy, mashed meat, the taste of lead and don`t mind wrecking your teeth.
"A Sabot is very closely formed about about the bullet and engages with the barrel rifling just as a bullet would, thus imparting spin. Until the sabot falls away from the projectile the composite form is effectively one unit."
That is the answer to your question that I gave above.
Try listening ( and reading ) instead of talking - you`ll learn a lot more.
`Spreader` technology has been around for some time and utilised by various cartridge manufacturers. It is just another in a long line of techniques designed to spread the shot as widely and quickly as possible whilst maintaining a good pattern and, as such, is primarily designed for competive Skeet shooting.
Earlier/alternative techniques include : `Tula` type chokes ; shaped wads, rifled chokes ( designed not for use with slugs but to disperse the shot ) and `Stripper` chokes which have protrusions which strip the shot cup from the shot at the muzzle.
The 1/3 -2/3 placement of shot is utilised in game guns - not dedicated clay guns.
The number of shot contained within any sized circle depends upon the chokes utilised, the amount ( number ) of shot contained within a cartridge and the design of the cartridge - ie whether a felt wad or plastic shot-cup is utilised. The ideal pattern is that as described above - Frankly, hitting a ( say ) Pheasant with the best part of 200 shot pellets ( if there are 300 in the cartridge ) will render it totally inedible...........unless you like crunchy, mashed meat, the taste of lead and don`t mind wrecking your teeth.
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shahid
A pheasant is only about 10 inches long Grumpy. You will never hit it with 200 pellets, retrace the maths we are talking of a 30 inch circle which means and area of 707 square inches.
AN ounce of no. 6 shot would have about 280 shots.
3 to 4 pellets is enough for a kill.
Unless halal is the Islamic way, I do not eat these Pheasants shot on English shoots. I let other guests have them, I am there for social and business reasons more than hunting.
And yes I was discussing a bespoke English S/S when I described this 2/3 shot theory.
Ken Davis my old instructor ( now retired ) from Holland & Holland shooting school had told me this.
AN ounce of no. 6 shot would have about 280 shots.
3 to 4 pellets is enough for a kill.
Unless halal is the Islamic way, I do not eat these Pheasants shot on English shoots. I let other guests have them, I am there for social and business reasons more than hunting.
And yes I was discussing a bespoke English S/S when I described this 2/3 shot theory.
Ken Davis my old instructor ( now retired ) from Holland & Holland shooting school had told me this.
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Grumpy
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Re: Changing the shot in a shotgun cartridge
Yes, a good point.
The `10 inch` length of a Pheasant is the average dressed body length and does not include the neck or head - which are critical areas as far as the lethality of a hit is concerned - or the wings bones and musclature which, although not critical, will bring a bird down if hit.
Remember also that an adult cock Pheasant can be up to 36" in overall length with a similar wingspan. If we assume that the actual area of the bird which will ensure it being downed if hit is only one sixth of the area of the 30" circle it will still be hit by over 30 pellets if your definition of the desirable shot density is followed - which is still too many hits.
Hunting for food is Halal. Hunting for pleasure or amusement is not. It`s difficult to see how driven Pheasant shoots can be Halal in any circumstances. Perhaps your best course of action would be to engage in walked-up or general rough shooting, taking birds just for the pot. More interesting and usually more challenging anyway - in my opinion.
The `10 inch` length of a Pheasant is the average dressed body length and does not include the neck or head - which are critical areas as far as the lethality of a hit is concerned - or the wings bones and musclature which, although not critical, will bring a bird down if hit.
Remember also that an adult cock Pheasant can be up to 36" in overall length with a similar wingspan. If we assume that the actual area of the bird which will ensure it being downed if hit is only one sixth of the area of the 30" circle it will still be hit by over 30 pellets if your definition of the desirable shot density is followed - which is still too many hits.
Hunting for food is Halal. Hunting for pleasure or amusement is not. It`s difficult to see how driven Pheasant shoots can be Halal in any circumstances. Perhaps your best course of action would be to engage in walked-up or general rough shooting, taking birds just for the pot. More interesting and usually more challenging anyway - in my opinion.
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Risala
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shahid";p="31904 wrote:.
Unless halal is the Islamic way, I do not eat these Pheasants shot on English shoots. I let other guests have them, I am there for social and business reasons more than hunting.
And yes I was discussing a bespoke English S/S when I described this 2/3 shot theory.
Ken Davis my old instructor ( now retired ) from Holland & Holland shooting school had told me this.
How does halal come into the equation,once game has got some lead,it's stone cold dead, period!Since you mention H & H,whatever happened to the bespoke gun you ordered, or was that another sabot you let loose.
Sanjay
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penpusher
Re: Changing the shot in a shotgun cartridge
Grumpy,informative as always.Too informative for some people's liking though 
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Grumpy
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Re: Changing the shot in a shotgun cartridge
penpusher, I am mindful of some members sensitivities and do try to keep the `gory` aspect/content of hunting in my answers as minimal as possible. The matter does need to be touched on sometimes though.
This forum is, after all, called `Indians For Guns` - not `Indians for Target and Clay Shooting Guns`- and we do have a section devoted to `Hunting, Hiking, etc`. It does no harm, I think, to remind people that hunting involves killing animals and that it should be carried out as efficiently and compassionately as possible. I`d also like to point out that hunters are often the best conservationists.
Sanjay, we do have Moslem members and the subject of Halal as regards hunting is bound to be discussed occasionally. Islaam does not proscribe hunting but lays down certain guidelines/laws within Halal regarding how believers should approach hunting. Intrinsic within these guidelines/laws is that animals should be treated with respect, that compassion should be employed when hunting and that excess should not be condoned. A highly moral approach to hunting.
This forum is, after all, called `Indians For Guns` - not `Indians for Target and Clay Shooting Guns`- and we do have a section devoted to `Hunting, Hiking, etc`. It does no harm, I think, to remind people that hunting involves killing animals and that it should be carried out as efficiently and compassionately as possible. I`d also like to point out that hunters are often the best conservationists.
Sanjay, we do have Moslem members and the subject of Halal as regards hunting is bound to be discussed occasionally. Islaam does not proscribe hunting but lays down certain guidelines/laws within Halal regarding how believers should approach hunting. Intrinsic within these guidelines/laws is that animals should be treated with respect, that compassion should be employed when hunting and that excess should not be condoned. A highly moral approach to hunting.
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shahid
Whatever number of pellets hits it it is inconsequental. My point is that if for personal consumption I ensure that a gunbearer or follower takes a pocket knife and slaughters it the Halal way. If no muslim gunbearer / servant is at hand then the attendand brings it to me and I do it myself.
I never shoot more than 4 to 5 birds in a days shoot. Rule applies 2 for me and 2 for a friend or common pot.
Even the non muslims on the shoot, the gamekeepers assistants, the bird gatherers carry dispatcher callipers to dispose the birds off quickly, it is only humane.
The Gun ordered from H & H will be ready for delivery in first quarter of 2008. It will be retained in England.
I am caught up with new business developments in Dubai and have not had the opportunity to visit England this auturm.
A little later perhaps I'll check on it.
Around chirstmas time H & H shooting school have some interesting events lined up, theres a nice 300 Mag double rifle to try on the rifle range. There are junior days as well.
I never shoot more than 4 to 5 birds in a days shoot. Rule applies 2 for me and 2 for a friend or common pot.
Even the non muslims on the shoot, the gamekeepers assistants, the bird gatherers carry dispatcher callipers to dispose the birds off quickly, it is only humane.
The Gun ordered from H & H will be ready for delivery in first quarter of 2008. It will be retained in England.
I am caught up with new business developments in Dubai and have not had the opportunity to visit England this auturm.
A little later perhaps I'll check on it.
Around chirstmas time H & H shooting school have some interesting events lined up, theres a nice 300 Mag double rifle to try on the rifle range. There are junior days as well.
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Risala
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Re: Changing the shot in a shotgun cartridge
Grumps,Shahid thanks for the clarifications,am aware of the halal way,have always bought meat from a
halal shop for as long as I can remember & pl do post pics of the H & H when you recieve it.
Sanjay
halal shop for as long as I can remember & pl do post pics of the H & H when you recieve it.
Sanjay
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kanwar76
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Re: Changing the shot in a shotgun cartridge
In my area Hindus and Sikhs won't even touch halal. No body buys meat from a shop if Jhataka is not mentioned, though I think halal is better ScientificallySanjay";p="32116 wrote:Grumps,Shahid thanks for the clarifications,am aware of the halal way,have always bought meat from a
halal shop for as long as I can remember & pl do post pics of the H & H when you recieve it.
Sanjay
-Inder
I am the Saint the Soldier that walks in Peace. I am the Humble dust of your feet, But dont think my Spirituality makes me weak. The Heavens will roar if my Kirpan were to speak...
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TwoRivers
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Re: Changing the shot in a shotgun cartridge
Shutzen: What's called a rifled slug is actually hollow-based with the majority of the weight up front, with the "rifling" ribs to give a better bore fit and also reduce friction. These neither require, nor gain appreciable in accuracy from a rifled bore. They can be fired from full choke barrels, but do better from a more open bore. It is the sabot slugs, much smaller than bore diameter and long for their diameter, that require a rifled bore. Solid lead balls of bore size should NOT be fired from a full choke, A somewhat smaller ball, patched with cloth to bore size, will work, and shoot quite accurately. Cheers.
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shahid