Powder for 45-70

[thesinfulsaint]

If anyone has or does reload for 45-70, I have very recently acquired a rifle in this caliber and would like to start reloading for it. Seems to be the only way I can afford to shoot it considering off the shelf ammo is in the ballpark of $2.50 a pop.

I have a couple of queries:
- What is the best medium load powder for this caliber which will not break the bank
- Any suggestions on reduced loads as I am hearing a spectrum of suggestions including, unique, trailboss, HS-6 and many more.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

- Saint

[timmy]

IMR 4198
H 4198
IMR 3031
5744

Any of these will work, but light bullets vs heavy ones, and light loads (i.e., "Trapdoor" loads vs. those intended for a Ruger #1 or other modern rifle, or a medium hot load, such as one intended for a M1886 Winchester) will make one better than the others.

For reduced loads, I use Unique, but some use Red Dot or other fast burning powders.

Consider a cheap Lee mould and cast your own bullets to save much more. Here, there is a choice between 350, 400, and 500 grain bullets, depending on what you want to do with the rifle.

Good luck in finding any large rifle primers. They have been unobtainable for several years.

[thesinfulsaint]

Thanks Timmy,

Your information matches to mostly what I have been reading.

As for the LRP i found some at Scheels in case you are looking for some: https://www.scheels.com/p/cci-mil-spec- ... rs#start=1

Not the ones I was looking for but quick research reveals that most folks have seen no difference in this and other offerings from CCI.

[timmy]

As a matter of fact, I was in Scheel's this past Wednesday (we came into the big city from the Big Empty) and noticed those military primers -- $85 per 1000 I think. I can pass on them for that price and will wait for regular CCI, Remington, or Federals (all made by the same company anyway!) I've still got a few hundred and haven't been doing much rifle shooting lately. Hopefully, large rifle primers will soon be available in the $50-$60 range, but I've been saying that for over a year now.

I have not tried 5744 yet, though I did buy three pounds of it awhile back that I'll use -- everyone raves about it for cast bullet shooting in most rifle calibers, which falls into my categories. I also grabbed a couple of pounds of Vihtavuori N130 to try, besides the 4198 (of both flavors) and the 3031 I have. 3031 is slower burning than the others, so it is mostly a high power heavy bullet loading.

As you mention Unique, there is an article that was published in a Guns Digest sometime back entitled "Light Loads for the 45-70" that I copied, but unfortunately I don't have the date or issue for it. I know that it starts on page 204, however. This article covers loads that include Unique, and also includes my mould, a Lyman 457130, which is the famous "collar button" bullet of about 150 grains. These were designed to be used as gallery loads back in the days when the National Guard was equipped with Trapdoors and would practice indoors.

If you go about the internet, you can find articles on light loads and "cat's sneeze" loads that include data for Unique and Red Dot. Generally, most anything about the size of 308 / 7.62 x 51 and larger can be loaded with 10 grains of Unique, but light cast loads for cartridges of the 7.62 x 39 and smaller size must use less than that. I have a very light Husqvarna bolt action single shot that I'm intending to use the collar button bullets in, and it will be used as a 22 plinker. I'e got plenty of 22 LR stashed away, so why I need a 45 caliber plinker, I don't know, but there you have it.

45-70 os a great caliber to reload for and to cast for -- it is very versatile and popular, especially in the cast bullet world. Big store-bought bullets like that get to be pretty expensive, while the kit needed to cast for it (mould, furnace, and small pan to lubricate the bullets) can be set up for less than $100 -- if you shoot more than 100 rounds, you will start coming close to breaking even, if you can scrounge your lead.

Years back, I used to belong to the Wolfe City Gun Club about 60 miles northeast of where you must be. i didn't care for city boy indoor ranges, and was shooting a lot of Mosin Nagant stuff then. There's that place by Mesquite that's supposed to be about 200 acres where you can shoot what you want at what you want where you want, but I never followed through with that; it may not be in operation anymore.

Off topic, but there used to be a "North Texas Indian Fine Art Association" (or something like that) in the area. I saw Alarmel Valli dance Bharatanatyam in Garland twice, and met her as well -- events which made a big impact on me. I still recall Alarmel Valli as one of the most, if not the most impressive individual I've ever met. Are you familiar with any of these goings-on?

[thesinfulsaint]

Thanks for the great info. I have been reading extensively on reduced, mild, standard and hot loads for 45-70. Will start reloading as soon as starline has brass available for it. Got all the other components.

Can’t say I know Alarmel Valli or anyone from the academy. You can attribute this lack of information to my area of interest and fine arts and such are not.

I am myself I am not a fan of indoor ranges, it just is not the same as outdoor range. Not to mention the crazy rules they have. I am planning to go to b-tactical in caddo mills to test and chronograph my reloads, which is about an hour drive from my place. Heard good things about it and they don’t have stupid rules regarding liability of hand loaded ammo. Also, they have ranges from 50, 100 all the way to 400 yards.

If you are ever in DFW area, do let me know and we will hit the range and catch some beers (in that order).

[timmy]

Thank you for the invitation!

I hear you about indoor ranges. The big thing is not letting you collect your fired brass. I can accept not having people crawling around on the floor while others are shooting, but still, my brass is important to me!

Caddo Mills: It was just starting to build up when we left the area. There was a place a couple miles south of town and on the south side of the interstate called Mickey's Ammo Depot. It's been some years since we lived in North Texas and it looks larger than it used to be. But that's where I bought my RFI 2A.

https://www.ammodepottx.com

Alarmel Valli is from Tamil Nadu and was on tours both times when I saw her dance:

http://www.alarmelvalli.org

[eljefe]

I have in the past reloaded for a mates single shot 45-70. A Brazilian copy,IIRC , of the H&R Topper type.
Lee 500 gr cast and 2205- same as the 4198.

I have used blue dot for cast and reduced loads in
.223,7.62x39, 9.3x62,7x57 and .404J

Start at 40% water capacity of the case and work upto 50%
During a Blue Dot famine, I got a 2kg can of AP-70 , our Aussie equivalent of Unique,and found I could use the same charge as BD in the heavies, with the same POI.
‘Sperimenting now with a Lee93gr cast,coated with HITEK to give me 0.3125 at 12 BHN as a plinker /subsonic load in the 7.62x39

[eljefe]

PS-Timmy
A 1lb tub of 2205 (4198) was advertised here for AUD 500. Yup correct zeros. Trail Boss is about $800. And the punters are buying.
And some
Obscure brand of European LR primers is about $400 for 1000.

As some
Pom said’makes your liver water’

[timmy]

Yow! Those are steep prices!

Powders on the shelf where I shop are generally $40 USD to $55 USD per pound. Primers, including CCI, Federal, and Remington (now all made by the same company) are going for $55 USD to $60 USD per 1000 for small and large pistol, and small rifle. Some military spec CCI primers are up to $80 USD per 1000, but there are NO large rifle primers, except that every now and then, someone will have some for over $100 USD per 1000, which I won't buy. Magnum primers are a bit more.

I have kept in mind those merchants who have tried to take advantage of the market to charge exorbitant prices. Certainly, in a free market, they have the right to charge whatever they wish for their merchandise. Likewise, I have the right to refuse to do business with them ever again, on principle.

[winnie_the_pooh]

@ eljefe .Isn't ADI supposed to make very good powder? Should be cheaper too being made in Australia.

[timmy]

A lot of our powder is made by ADI. There is something totten afoot here for Australia.

[eljefe]

A lot of our powder is made by ADI. There is something totten afoot here for Australia.

Very rotten.

Since the ukraine war, it is speculated by the knowledgeable reloaders that every grain of pistol/shotgun type powder is sent to help the artillery effort in the UA war.
Pistol shooters are the hardest hit, many have taken to cutting open 12ga shells.
Low vel powder is equivalent to AS 30or 50 and hi vel game loads>1200 fps, is the blue dot equivalent. And at about $100 for a slab of 250 shells, it is economical,has been safe so far, with plenty of users.

Winnie-
For decades now ADI 2208 and 2209 are sold to the big powder makers in the US, who rebadge it as Varget and H/I 4350 respectively.

The Aussie powders are the most temperature stable in the world. And the cleanest burning.
When recently I started reloading for .223 with a couple of pounds of hoarded Win 748, I read many caveats , both on US and local aussie nets about dangerous overpressures if the temperatures spiked. I’ve kept to the middle of the road loads because these are hunting loads and I am happy with an inch or less at 200 y running 3000fps or lesser.

Win ‘white box’ .223 factory loads are the dirtiest burning I’ve ever seen. Not much exposed to factory…
Thales owns the ADI group. Nuff said

[winnie_the_pooh]

Prices went up during the pandemic for many things ...supply issues and all that we were told...pandemic ended and still the prices have not come down. Now it is the Ukraine war to blame....for almost everything.

[timmy]

Firstly, let me mention what I believe to be the reloading powder business model: Powder factories are set up to meet the needs of institutional customers, primarily the military, and then ammunition makers, with a little capacity left over to handle "bumps" in demand. When these bumps are not present, the surplus powders produced are then sold into the reloading market. This means that the stock available to reloaders is not always going to be constantly available -- there will be periods of shortage because the reloading market is only a "rubber band" to ensure that institutional and commercial buyers needs are met while keeping the factories running at near 100% capacity.

Secondly, this has been overlaid with COVID - induced shortages in production, transportation, and distribution. Also, the Ukraine War has also entered into this.

The foregoing is to point out that there will be disruptions in reloading powder supplies, as well as effects on lesser priority customers like commercial ammunition makers. the military customers, in other words, will always come first. Hobbyists and hunters will come last in priority.

The law of supply and demand will enter into the picture and cause price fluctuations. It is basic business that, whenever there's a price increase, retailers will increase the prices on the shelf to match what they have to pay for replacement, even though they paid less for what is on the shelf. Also, when and if prices subside, many won't lower prices unless their competition does, in order to increase profits. I'm not making a judgment call on this practice -- you can do this for yourself. I'm only stating what goes on in the real world.

A similar situation takes place with regard to the consolidation of the market that has been taking place over time. The fewer companies that are at any level of the manufacturing - distribution - retail chain, the more opportunity is available for increasing the price of a product in a monopolistic manner. If I can withhold products from the market, demand will increase and I can trickle out products at increased prices, and whether you buy them or not, that is your choice.

Hurray for the "free market," as some call it.

For the number of powders available to reloaders, the number of manufacturers has decreased over time. I can't speak to powder manufacture in nations like Russia and China, but their powder production won't be available to shooters anyway, whether by these countries restricting export, or other nations restricting the importation of their products.

We get what we get, in other words.

The same principles are present when discussing primers, and to a lesser extent, brass.

Did you know that extruded powders, that is, powders that are composed of little cylindrical shapes, require environmentally nasty compounds like nitric acid to manufacture? This is why almost all extruded powder manufacture in the USA has ceased, and almost all USA made powder comes from the St. Marks factory operated by the defense contractor General Dynamics, which makes ball powder for the military. Surplus powder from this factory is made available to commercial ammunition makers, and then to reloaders through distributors, manly Hodgdon, which has bought out almost all of its competition.

Thales, an international company based in France, makes a lot of powder in Australia that was formerly called ADI, or Australian Defense Industries. I believe ADI was originally set up during WW2 to ensure that Australia could meet its munitions requirements at that time, for understandable reasons. I don't know how Thales/ADI powder is distributed and sold in Australia or internationally to commercial makers, but I do know that in the USA, these powders are largely marketed by Hodgdon to reloaders.

The Swedes make Norma powders and the Finns make Vihtavuori powders. I've bought some Vihtavuori powder to try, but haven't done so yet. As you might guess, it is cheaper than any of the brands of similar powders distributed by Hodgdon. Bofors has made powder in Sweden, but I don't know whether there's any connection between Norma and Bofors or not.

The Czechs make powder under the Lovex brand. I haven't seen any of these powders available for awhile, and suspect that it is all going to Ukraine under the EU program sto supply ammunition to that country.

The French have powder making capabilities, I think, and I've seen some of their powders advertised in conjunction with Norma, I believe. I can't say any more about this, as I've never actually seen these powders on the shelves, nor do I recall the marketing brand offhand.

There is a powder manufacturing plant in Canada that is owned by General Dynamics -- the same company that operates the USA St Marks plant. I suppose distribution of those Canadian powders are similar to the USA made powder.

I'm not sure about the powders that were formerly under the Hurcules brand, itself part of the giant Dupont company. It may not be known, but the former two large companies that manufactured guns, Remington and Winchester, were formerly owned by Du Pont and Olin Mathieson companies, respectively. (Of course, Du Pont also owned paint companies, handy because they also own a huge chunk of the General Motors car manufacturer.) Hercules made Bullseye and Unique, a pair of very old powders originally made by a company that I think was named Laughlin and Rand, or something like that, which was bought out by Du Pont.

The point of my rambling is this: I don't know where Indian ammunition makers buy their powders; whether this is internationally or not. But anything that is imported will come mostly from the same countries I've listed, above.

If anyone would like to share the details of Indian ammuntion, such as where the components are made, please share this with us!