c96 Broomhandle 763x25 Mauser

[ozk009]

Just curious, if any one have insight on C96 Broomhandle & its possible service in India.

[timmy]

The C96 in India is an interesting topic, I think, and I hope that some input will be posted on this thread.

I'm no C96 specialist at all, but here's what I'd think about this topic: During the time of the C96, from first sales until after WW2, with the Raj and its laws in effect, I'd think that the major C96 presence in India would be from personally purchased sidearms of British officers, such as Winston Churchill's use of one at Omdurman.

Perhaps some maharaja or other privileged person could get hold of one by some means or another, such as by an exclusive importer.

Lots of C96s were also used by China and various copies were made there, too, and I'd suspect that a few of these found there way to India by some means and for some reason.

Hopefully, we'll have an interesting story or two about the C96.

[winnie_the_pooh]

C96 pistols in India were imported into the country by dealers licensed to import arms and ammunition. In the British Army, the side arm of the officers was required to be chambered for the army issue ammunition.
As far as the question of officers buying their own sidearms goes, I don't know if this was the practice for the British Indian Army. Even if it was, it would almost certainly not apply to Indian Officers.

So if any C96 was ever used by an army officer in India, it would be an exception and not as a standard issue sidearm. They were certainly not used by the police.

[Vineet]

Full auto version of C96 are also present in good numbers in India.

[ozk009]

The matter that makes me curious is- how will & how much the 763x25 will differ with 762X25. Did Russia copy cat most of its technology from Germany? If 762X25 was developed in China first , I would not be asking this Question.

[Vineet]

7.62 are loaded hot as compared to 7.63. In the video below, C96 with 4” barrel penetrated six inches where as Tokarev penetrates eight inches.

So you can fire 7.63 ammo in Tokarev but shouldn’t fire 7.62 in C96.

[ozk009]

Thanks for the information.so what I got is , there is not much difference between them in terms of physical specifications and they can be interchage. However some difference in pressure.

[timmy]

When one studies data on these cartridges, the numbers don't always agree.

I would advise that it is best to follow Vineet's recommendation and shoot 7.62 x 25 in guns only intended for it. 7.63 Mauser might be used in a 7.62 x 25 Tokarev or other gun chambered for Tokarev if the gun is in good shape and has preferably checked out by a gunsmith, including the use of headspace gauges. For guns chambered in 7.63 Mauser, only that cartridge should be used.

The reason for this is that the various military forces that used both cartridges did not adhere to CIP or SAMMI cartridge specifications. The dimensions they used to build their various guns and the loads they used were for their use, not for sale to the general public to be used in whatever the ammunition would fit.

Note in the video that Vineet provided, the muzzle flash from the Tokarev pistol. This is also my experience shooting this ammunition out of a Czech CZ52. This is my only pistol chambered in 7.62 x 25. My Chinese "Star" (A Tokarev style chambered in 9mm) doesn't have near the felt power of the CZ52, but the weight of the pistols and their ergonomics is different, so felt recoil isn't reliable.

I have not tried either pistol at the range over my chronograph since I bought it.

The reason for all of this is that the 7.62 x 25 was chambered in a number of different weapons, including submachine guns. It is said that some military ammunition is loaded quite a bit "hotter" than other ammunition. My experience, gained by "seat of the pants" look and feel tells me that, yes, the Romanian surplus ammunition I shoot in the CZ52 is hotter than the commercial Sellier & Ballot and other commercial ammunition I've shot.

[Kittu]

The matter that makes me curious is- how will & how much the 763x25 will differ with 762X25. Did Russia copy cat most of its technology from Germany? If 762X25 was developed in China first , I would not be asking this Question.

7.62x25 tokarev and 7.63x25 mauser are entirely different cartridges apart from case size.
yes both cartridges can be fired interchangeably but not advised to do so specially 7.62x25 in c96 broomhandle.
If you ask a dealer he will try to sell what he has in stock.mostly they have 7.62x25 tokarev in stock
he will tell you it's only less then hair difference and he have been selling these cartridges for years without any complaint.
Many people have fired 7.62x25 in c96 and it does fire 7.62 cartridges safely in c96 most of time.
most of time but not always.7.62x25 tokarev ammo burns too hot then 7.63x25.
7.62x25 tokarev fires at 1600 fps while 7.63 at 1400 fps.
there is 200 fps difference in both cartridge.
it doesn't matters in open bolt carbines or bolt action rifles.
but it does matters in semiauto like c96 which have a complex design.
with a weak delayed blowback mechanism.
if you fire 7.62 tokarev in c96 it will put strain on locking lug as it was designed for lower pressure cartridge
after firing 200,300 ammo because of high pressure that locking lug can get damaged or wear out .
when locking lug gets loose or wears out slide will not rotate or it will rotate twice ejecting empty case and one live cartridge with it.
from where you will new lug.if you give it for repair gunsmith will put some metal on worn out places by heating it and will remove
heat treatment from it completely ruining it.
tokarev pistol link design locking system is much stronger then c96 mechanism
i know this because i have faced this problem myself

regards

[ozk009]

The matter that makes me curious is- how will & how much the 763x25 will differ with 762X25. Did Russia copy cat most of its technology from Germany? If 762X25 was developed in China first , I would not be asking this Question.

7.62x25 tokarev and 7.63x25 mauser are entirely different cartridges apart from case size.
yes both cartridges can be fired interchangeably but not advised to do so specially 7.62x25 in c96 broomhandle.
If you ask a dealer he will try to sell what he has in stock.mostly they have 7.62x25 tokarev in stock
he will tell you it's only less then hair difference and he have been selling these cartridges for years without any complaint.
Many people have fired 7.62x25 in c96 and it does fire 7.62 cartridges safely in c96 most of time.
most of time but not always.7.62x25 tokarev ammo burns too hot then 7.63x25.
7.62x25 tokarev fires at 1600 fps while 7.63 at 1400 fps.
there is 200 fps difference in both cartridge.
it doesn't matters in open bolt carbines or bolt action rifles.
but it does matters in semiauto like c96 which have a complex design.
with a weak delayed blowback mechanism.
if you fire 7.62 tokarev in c96 it will put strain on locking lug as it was designed for lower pressure cartridge
after firing 200,300 ammo because of high pressure that locking lug can get damaged or wear out .
when locking lug gets loose or wears out slide will not rotate or it will rotate twice ejecting empty case and one live cartridge with it.
from where you will new lug.if you give it for repair gunsmith will put some metal on worn out places by heating it and will remove
heat treatment from it completely ruining it.
tokarev pistol link design locking system is much stronger then c96 mechanism
i know this because i have faced this problem myself

regards

Thank you a lot. Very informative. If someone is planning on buying this handgun , they Know , what to look for.

[shooter50]

7.62x25 tokarev and 7.63x25 mauser are entirely different cartridges apart from case size.
yes both cartridges can be fired interchangeably but not advised to do so specially 7.62x25 in c96 broomhandle.........

Very informative post Kittu

[Kittu]

Thanks @ shooter.for cleaning and service watch this video.After you have disassembled it.
examine locking block very carefully if find some wear marks on locking block pistol is already ruined.
it is case hardened part and when it get damaged dealer gets it made from some simple steel you have to watch for that too while buying.
now don't even think of removing bolt and main spring it is very hard to put it back not like it looks in video.he is gunsmith with lots of experience
you can remove firing pin to clean inside of bolt and oil it.do not remove anything from mechanism it is enough to clean and oiling everything.
don't use metal to remove magazine use wooden pensile or other plastic.it is easy to dissemble and reassemble for cleaning it.you may find safety
lock different some locks by pushing safety lever up side and mostly down side.problem with down side safety is you can lock it because of recoil
and your thumb bone can push it upward while firing and you will not even realise what happened and you will think pistol jammed.if it jams look at safety lever first.

[tim r armitage]

Provenance for the British Indian Army 1939-1945 Broomhandle Mauser holster.
2024 a collection of items was brought into a local antiques shop. This being an 1821 pattern Royal Engineers sword marked with the name C. C.Whitelock Leeds. Various metal insignia to the 5th Mahratta light infantry a belt and a holster. The vendor indicated that his late father had been seconded to the 5th Mahratta during the second world war and had brought back the items he had been issued with. Thus, this is unimpeachable proof that the Broomhandle Mauser was used in Indian service during the war. The holster was given as a gift to the current owner as he has an interest in the weapon.
Having considerable difficulty in posting the pictures of which there are four Tim R Armitage

[Vikram]

You can attach the photos to your post by clicking on the attachments tab at the left bottom. Please refer to the attachment below.

[sukirtishobhan]

I have C-96 Mauser pistol. Transferred from my grandfather (IAS) . Fired thousands rounds. No issue, no jamming. Deadly more than 150 meters with broomhandle.