ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!

[Royal Gun House]

WOW Great News for Gun Lovers of India

[pistolero]

All this excitement about Armscor! Wow!! But I guess, when there is no choice, something is better than nothing

Armscor is like a starter pistol which people buy for $250 and modify, its Cast and few are milled, parts are not drop in. As I mentioned before, Turkey has kicked their butt in the US and Canik & Sarsilmaz are head and shoulders above them. I guess, when you are coming to India, the heat in the US is finally catching up

Its not like Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, Night Hawk or any seriously known player of high quality 1911's has arrived. Jindal is also going to bring the Taurus. So what is new here? Oh wait Gold Plated

As Bharti Licensed Nagriks, we will have the arduous pleasure of choosing better of the worst

Can somebody please bring a reputable 1911 builder from the US? Even a small shop will do.

[timmy]

Armscor is like a starter pistol which people buy for $250 and modify, its Cast and few are milled, parts are not drop in.

I have written at length about Armscor, examining their double action revolver, in an earlier post, which I again quoted earlier in this thread.

I disagree with the quoted statement above. One point I'd like to make is that a combination of casting and milling does not indicate a gun's reliability or poor level of quality. Ruger guns, widely respected for quality are all a combination of cast and milled parts and don't suffer in the least because if it.

A simple perusal of my earlier post, quoted in this thread, states which parts are manufactured from sintered metal. Kahr, a quality USA manufacturer, uses sintered parts in some of their guns, as do others that don't come to mind at the moment.

The whole point of my earlier post was to point out how Armscor, by using modern manufacturing methods and combining the best aspects of previous, successful designs, is able to produce a gun that is both serviceable and inexpensive, compared to other guns on the market.

Surely we are not going to belittle modern manufacturing methods, as such thinking will put us into the pre-Eli Whitney and interchangeable parts era, at a minimum. Humanity is, after all, by the studies of science and engineering, able to improve on previous products. Otherwise, we'd all be shooting matchlocks.

The Armscor revolver is most certainly not a "starter's pistol." I don't even begin to understand what meaning or relevance "parts are not drop in" has, or what "Turkey has kicked their butt" has to do with the price of eggs or anything else.

Expressing one's opinions based on feelings is all well and good, and anyone has the choice (when they come to market) of buying an Armscor or not -- nobody is being forced here. I also well understand the pent-up frustration of hearing people "guarantee" that a certain gun will come on the market -- that "prophet" was what -- over a year ago?

But I don't get the impression that those situations are what we're facing here. Time will tell, as always, and there are many unanswered questions about this matter. But I hardly think that "starter pistol" and "butt kicking" claims are constructive elements of a well-reasoned argument against something.

[pistolero]

The Questions here are simple, Armscor has a found a partner who claims to have 40 years of experience in Defence and was only incorporated 2 years ago. The company in India, has no prior experience in manufacturing, and is a real estate company. The Win claiming 40 years of experience could very well be Win Chaddha legacy, which again shows trading experience. NOT MANUFACTURING.

Now ARMSCOR whatever way you cut it, IS NOT a premium manufacturer. Sintered parts are not reliable and we can go into the mechanics of that.

On the part of Turkey kicking their butt, the simple point is Armcor has been in the business for a long time, but has FAILED to gain market share, if their quality was good, they WOULD have gained market share. The Turkish companies riding on the quality of their product have beaten Armscor at their own game by providing reliable products. That is the point of Kicking their butt, hope this is clear. They are losing market share in the US and just as Taurus are looking at new markets to bolster sales. Fact of the matter, is in the Phillipines none of their armed services use Armscor. (Please inform if otherwise, would happily correct myself)

We are all free to choose what we like, but ARMSCOR is not going to change its manufacturing process for India, highly unlikely, so it is the same heap of 'junk' as I would like to to call it, and you may call it gold, its a point of view. Is what will be available here. The main question is are they establishing a factory here, or importing and assembling??

If you like their revolvers that is great! More power to you, however are they going to sell it for $200 here?No they will probably sell at a price higher than even S&W, or Manhurin or any other premium player. So while people might think they are the 2nd Coming and think they are buying Premium revolver, that is not what Armscor is.

[timmy]

The argument above fails, because it is based on two assertions that will not stand scrutiny.

Firstly:

Sintered parts are not reliable and we can go into the mechanics of that.

Indeed we can. Many cars today use sintered connecting rods, a part that it subjected to many stresses and heat conditions, quite successfully. As a matter of fact, "rod rodding" high performance connecting rods are now sold, and these parts are also incorporated in various high performance engines.

Speaking from a personal perspective, I just drove my old turbo Volvo up into the mountains this afternoon, up to around 11,000 feet in elevation. The car has 182,000 miles on it and runs quite well. It has sintered connecting rods, and none of these five rods has failed yet.

Sintered construction is a technology that's been around for quite sometime, famously used in bushings and bearings. The porousity of the sintered material holds lubrication, providing durability. Now, many parts under high stress (such as connecting rods) use sintered construction for the same reason Ruger was successful in introducing investment casting in firearms construction: a part could be made that did the job more cheaply, usually because less finishing was needed to make the part acceptable.

Simply to say "sintered parts are not reliable" is proof of nothing. Reliability must first be defined (what is the acceptable amount of failure) and data must be collected and provided to show that a particular unit does not meet that given level of reliability. That's what's lacking in the above statement.

Secondly:

the simple point is Armcor has been in the business for a long time, but has FAILED to gain market share, if their quality was good, they WOULD have gained market share

The idea that the market determines the best product has been proven false so many times that I'm surprised that it's still advanced. For instance, in the USA, General Motors came out with a small 3.5 liter aluminum V8, which did not catch on and was dropped after three years of production. During this time, Formula One driver/builder Jack Brabham of Australia used the Repco/Brabham V8 based on this aluminum block to with the World Grand Prix championship. Subsequently, Rover used this same engine for many years in their products, as well.

After many years in industry, it's quite clear to me that having a successful product and having a good product are two different things. Many good products go by the wayside because a good idea is only 20% of success: Marketing and sales is 80% of success. The imfamous Chrysler "K Cars" were poor products, but hype by Chrysler Chairman Lee Iacocca sold them to Americans and kept the company afloat.

Many well-made guns have fallen by the wayside because they were not marketed properly. The point that "if their quality was good, they WOULD have gained market share" is simply not true.

[pistolero]

Here is the thing Cast, Sintered & MIM parts are known to fail. There is a Reason WILSON, LES baer, Night Hawk etc, DO NOT use Sintered/MIM/Cast parts. In the MIM process, the debinding steps and sintering steps are critical to making sure the part has the correct hardness. If either of those steps aren’t done correctly, you can get a part that’s too soft, such many of the Kimber MIM sears, or a part that’s too hard and thus brittle. Those steps can also be performed correctly and still result in a part that’s too soft if your initial formula wasn’t quite right. Quality Control is a big big concern. Now if you want to justify that a bargain basement manufacturer is indeed going through the process of strict quality control, and has got it right, where most in the world have not, that is on you. I dont believe in Santa Claus, but I have nothing against people who do.

So your point on market is, that the Armscor is a Great product! and losing market share has nothing to do with quality? you had a certain share of market and now your market is dwindling, because instead of moving forward you are standing still, no up gradation, no change in process! You are not listening to customer feedback! So others have come and yes kicked your butt, and have taken your market share, because of their product quality, they had no History in the American market, but by providing consistent quality they have prevailed. Now we can romanticize this with what a great product! Should have continued to succeed!! Well truth of the matter is, they had market share till there was no choice. Once companies started listening to their customers, the ones not listening, lost market share. So there is the WOULD. The company refuses to change, so now instead of trying to find their way in their primary market they are coming to India, and that too with a company which has ZERO manufacturing experience, and we are expecting Manna to drop from heaven!! Again if they were so great, would their own security forces not prefer it?? and in India, where we have no licenses, and scant chances of success why even bother? The only reason is they have no choice! they have to bolster numbers, and I am sure they see a market with a Billion people wanting cheap guns

We can keep going on and on....

You Sir are free to buy what you want, but presenting Armscor, as a success or a quality product is misrepresentation, they are "cheap junk" good for markets where you can buy a cheap gun and work on it as a hobby, not in India, where you can only have 2 guns, and you have put your life in the hands of a product which is far from perfect.

But again, we are all free to make our own mistakes. You like it, you should buy it. I will NOT buy it.

[mohshar]

I was expecting some rant sooner or later but I convey my sincere compliments to the community encouraging our efforts. I will not defend anything or try to justify opinions, nor argue, time will be the best judge. I think that, in a fare and open market all choices ranging from affordable to top quality should be available to the customers and we got best of both the worlds. Armscor stands with us as strong as Smith and Wesson does. My background and manufacturing experience are well endorsed by the brands standing with me which so far is India's biggest commercial firearms alliance and, I don't need an experience endorsement from anyone. I am aware of the experiences of current and upcoming firearms manufacturers pretty well, thus we decided to bring our firearms in alliance with some of the oldest and well known brands who have stood the test of time.

I know it hurts to some when I am about to disrupt a market where ordinary 1911s are selling for thousands of dollars while modern handguns models are nowhere to be seen. I do not expect everybody to like what we are doing and everyone has a free will to choose whether to buy or not.

I reiterate fellow IFG'ians and prospective customers, all of our products will be backed by warranties unheard in the Indian gun market backed by authorized warranty stations from respective brands. Our resolve to bring quality and affordable firearms remains strong and nothing can discourage us from bringing what Indian gun-bearing community truly deserves.

Generic Note: I am getting lot of PMs and significant number of emails everyday from prospective and loving customers, dealers and partners from all over the country and I am putting sincere effort into responding to each and everyone. I request you all to kindly bear with me if response is delayed.

Best Regards,
Mohit

[pistolero]

Dude there is no Rant. We are stating facts.

Since you have waddled into this, please HIGHLIGHT your experience in Manufacturing in General & Firearms in Particular. Since you claim you have 40 years of Experience in Defence & Firearms manufacturing, let us know a little. Such a rich experience needs to be shared, when that is your claim to fame. By the way where were you manufacturing firearms for 40 years?? in India ??

Your company is only 2 years old and you claim, 40 years of experience. We are obviously missing something, the more you clarify the easier it will be. Open ended statements, wont get any where. Please defend you claims. Waiting to hear about your rich experience. Which Im sure will mitigate any concern which people have.

If you would have noticed, no one here is taking about S&W we are taking about cheap and cheerful Armscor. Which is a Heap of Junk.

Now that you are getting a lot of emails, is the main reason, misrepresentation must be clarified, we are not interested to know about the other companies experience we know, what they can and cannot do. Since you are the new kid on the block and that too with FORTY years of experience. Please educate us.

[Crazygunlover]

I will purchase armscor(Rock Island )45 pistol as soon as it launches on my arms license .. some people don't want that affordable weapon should come and they never speak about Indian 45 pistol selling at around 7 to 8 lacs with no international presence in india now ....they never give their opinion on current pricing of Indian 45 pistol...

[pistolero]

Crazy gun Lover, are you the supporting handle to Moshar? I see your comments mirror his.

Please share you rich shooting experience, as well. Im sure we want to learn from your experience. And about the other Indian Manufacturers! You think they have not been called out

Lets focus on you now, please ask your fellow handle to highlight 40 years of experience in Manufacturing Firearms in India.

[Crazygunlover]

Dear plz tell ur expertise in firearms ...do u own any arms manufacturing unit or you a subject matter expert in this field or have u made any investment in this field .....till no answers about Indian firearms 45 pistol selling for 7 to 8 lacs .......what we will buy it's once choice...........

[pistolero]

Crazy Gun Lover, so you want to answer a question with a question So predictable and expected. Your having a hard time defending 40 years of manufacturing experience now are you??

Unfortunately you guys have chosen the wrong forum to brag about "Guns" & Manufacturing experience.

Yes Dude I have won Medals at National Level in Pistol Shooting, and I do have more than 3 Decades of experience in firearms, now that you know this, please highlight your experience, and dont forget to come to the Aid of your primary handle to defend 40 years of manufacturing experience.

You seem fixated on what others are doing, 7-8 Lakhs Pistol... please take names and specify, lets not leave anything to conjecture. What is your point?? Are you asking why have other sub standard manufacturers not been dragged in the Mud? and why are we giving you a hard time?? Is that your point? Please confirm.

[Crazygunlover]

In our country many youngsters even at very young age are also winning the prestigious medals at national and international levels ...I think many of shooters are also here in this forum ....but I am not seeing any negative comments from their side .... .....let the customer decide it's choice and time will tell about each brand .... For experiences the products are the litmus test ... I was talking about MSD 1911 pistols and in my previous many messages also i have questioned on their price of 7 to 8 lacs due to monopolistic condition ...many brands are coming ..hope this price will sustain...let this negativity away

[pistolero]

Yes my dear, nice of you to come out in the open, dont be a Troll, stop using 2 different handles to support your posts.

Now please highlight your shooting experience?Also dont forget 40 years of Manufacturing experience. Unless you answer both questions, leave the "aleck smart" statements of "Litmus test" for later.

MSD again is something, I would not buy, as it is in the same category as Armscor, which is actually a compliment to MSD talk about tragic comedy of the situation

Now dear, 40 years Manufacturing Experience in Firearms, we are awaiting details

[Crazygunlover]

Dear,Take a deep breath .... Let this negativity away