Hi Folks,
Excited to share Limited edition Werywin RIA 'Gold plated 1911s in 4.2 inch barrel .45 ACP' (100 deliveries planned in phase one)
Regards,
Mohit
*Images are actual representation of Werywin RIA 1911 pistol, property of Werywin Defence Private Limited (India) & Rock Island Armory (USA), not to be distributed or reproduced without prior permission
ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!
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mohshar
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!
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EkManushya
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!
that looks damn good.
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Jr.
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!
Beautiful looking Pistol.
We in India could only dream of owning such exquisite Firearms.
Thank you for sharing, Mohit.
Regards,
Jr.
We in India could only dream of owning such exquisite Firearms.
Thank you for sharing, Mohit.
Regards,
Jr.
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winnie_the_pooh
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!
Will certainly sell in certain circles. The good thing is that it is going to be in limited production.
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Jr.
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!
Was doing a bit of research on Rock Island Armory.
They along with Fred Craig are credited with inventing the .22 TCM Cartridge.
A very interesting round.
I append below the comparison between a .22 TCM and .22 LR, as taken from Wikipedia.
.22 TCM - Mass 40 gr. Pointed Flat Nose; Velocity 2,800 ft./s.; Energy 696 ft⋅lbf.
.22 LR - Mass 40 gr. Solid; Velocity 1,200 ft./s; Energy 131 ft⋅lbf.
Note the difference between the two, in both Velocity and Energy respectively.
I doubt if this Cartridge will have any takers in India.
Just wanted to share.
The .45 ACP, .40 S&W and .357MAG will always have a high demand.
Regards,
Jr.
They along with Fred Craig are credited with inventing the .22 TCM Cartridge.
A very interesting round.
I append below the comparison between a .22 TCM and .22 LR, as taken from Wikipedia.
.22 TCM - Mass 40 gr. Pointed Flat Nose; Velocity 2,800 ft./s.; Energy 696 ft⋅lbf.
.22 LR - Mass 40 gr. Solid; Velocity 1,200 ft./s; Energy 131 ft⋅lbf.
Note the difference between the two, in both Velocity and Energy respectively.
I doubt if this Cartridge will have any takers in India.
Just wanted to share.
The .45 ACP, .40 S&W and .357MAG will always have a high demand.
Regards,
Jr.
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timmy
- Old Timer
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!
re: 22 TCM and 22 LR
I'm reminded of a friend I had many years ago in Montana. Montana is normally perceived as a giant Western state with large uninhabited areas and a sparse population. This is true. My friend was a surveyor, and had been all over the western part of the state doing his work. He said that he didn't think that there was a single section (a section is a square mile, 640 acres, and 259 hectares) that didn't have a "discovery hole" dug in it. (A discovery hole is a place where someone had dug to explore for minerals, generally gold or silver.)
This is the same with all of the cartridges one can list. 22 TCM is a pretty obvious development, considering the idea behind the larger 221 Fireball (originally intended for the Remington XP100 bolt action handgun), itself derived from 222 Remington, which led to 222 Remington Magnum, which led to 223 Remington / 5.56 NATO, and shortening the cartridge for working through a smaller pistol like 30 Tokarev / 7.62 x 25. As such, it's more or less the same idea seen in the FN 5.7 x 28 cartridge.
The very bottom lines to this story are:
1. You can make a cartridge do amazing things by increasing the velocity, as energy increases by the square of the velocity, i.e. geometrically, and that is almost invariably achieved by increasing the operating pressure. (You make a bigger case and put more powder in it, which generates more energy, which causes an increase in pressure, which drives the bullet faster.)
2. Whatever one does and wherever one goes, there is undoubtedly some factory or company, or some home tinkerer, or some semi-professional type that has been over that ground before, like my friend the surveyor found. It is, in fact, quite common for companies to take an old development, dust it off with minor or no changes, give it a new, shiny name, and throw it on the market.
Regarding this second point, this is not to denigrate some entity, person, or company's effort to bring a new cartridge to market. After all, Newton himself said that he was able to see because he'd stood on the backs of giants. There are not very many Leonardo da Vincis in human history, after all.
Today, with all of the law suits that are filed, it takes a great effort to bring a new cartridge to market, considering all the testing that must be done. This must consider new powders, new projectiles, and new guns (along with all of the old ones that might possibly chamber the new round). Getting something that is an "improvement" is a pretty tall order.
Also, and more importantly, my experience in industry, academics, and in government work has taught me that a good idea is only 20% of the issue at play when bringing a new product to market. 80% of the problem is talking the money out of someone else's pocket into your own, or that of your company's.
Don't believe me? Try it yourself and see: you have to work your way through the bowels of the company (either yours, or the companies your small enterprise is trying to sell the idea to), presenting your idea to umpteen different groups, at umpteen different meetings and conferences. (Tired of work? Hold a meeting!) After all, an enterprise makes its success on getting other people's money, not paying out of its own pocket.
Finally,
3. improvements on the 22 LR are not improvements. Yes, one can tinker with 22 LR and get more of a certain type of performance, but as with most contests, the whole issue depends on the rules of the contest, doesn't it? Sure, you can get more velocity, or use a heavier or lighter bullet, or make alrger/longer case, or neck it down to use a smaller diameter bullet, etc, etc, ad infinitum ad nauseam.
If you examine these improvements, winning such "contests" with the old 22 LR normally involves raising pressures. The old formula for 22 LR success was determined many years ago.
What about when the rules of the contest have to include, the expense of the ammunition, or its universal availability?
What about when the rules of the contest include the cost and thus price of the firearm? Because 22 LR is low intensity, a cheaper firearm with less strength than high pressure rounds can be used to make a product.
What about using rimfire cartridge cases? The cost of the ammunition is reduced, though at some cost to reliability compared to centerfire ammunition.
What about light recoil, acceptable to many shooters, especially new shooters, women, children, or people who are physically challenged?
What about noise? Have you been at a range when someone touches off a 44 Magnum, 357 Magnum, 5.7 x 28, or even a 7.62 x 25 Tokarev? I will guarantee you, while at some ranges, a 9mm Luger being fired won't cause any concern, touching off even a 7.62 Tokarev will get just about everyone's attention!
There have been many attempts at 22 LR improvement in the past: 22 WRF, 22 WMR (aka 22 Magnum), 5mm Remington, 17 Hornady Magnum, etc. Some have lasted, some have not. Some of the improvements may last or may not, as well. But will they take the place of the 22 LR? No! Emphatically, no!
The 22 LR may or may not be the greatest cartridge in the world in someone's opinion (I don't really have a "greatest cartridge" category). I'll just note that underpants are great, and they are universal, and they do a superb job, but that trying to use them as socks or a shirt doesn't work out so well. Underpants are the fundamental part of clothing, but I don't consider them "the greatest," even though I always begin dressing by putting them on.
22 LR has already been "improved." There was the 22 Short, and other permutations. There was the 22 Long, which tried to compete with the 22 LR in price by combining the 22 LR case with the 22 Short bullet. But in the end, the universal acceptance of 22 LR made its manufacturing costs become the lowest, which appeals to many for many good reasons. Where we've arrived with the 22 LR is optimal, therefore, for the jobs that so many use it for. There are new powders -- there always will be. But, if one increases the pressure by using a new powder, the whole thing breaks down, because the new improved version can't be used in every gun the current 22 LR is, and then one loses price and availability advantages.
(Digression here: when considering the 22 LR improvement, remember that it must work well in little guns with 2 inch barrels and others with much longer barrels!)
The bottom line is, sure, you can easily exceed the 22 LR in some category. But you cannot exceed it in the category that matters: everyone wants to buy it and use it because of what it does. So, nothing is going to take its place.
Whether you consider the 22 LR "the greatest" or not, it remains at the top of the hill alone, because it's what people want.
I'm reminded of a friend I had many years ago in Montana. Montana is normally perceived as a giant Western state with large uninhabited areas and a sparse population. This is true. My friend was a surveyor, and had been all over the western part of the state doing his work. He said that he didn't think that there was a single section (a section is a square mile, 640 acres, and 259 hectares) that didn't have a "discovery hole" dug in it. (A discovery hole is a place where someone had dug to explore for minerals, generally gold or silver.)
This is the same with all of the cartridges one can list. 22 TCM is a pretty obvious development, considering the idea behind the larger 221 Fireball (originally intended for the Remington XP100 bolt action handgun), itself derived from 222 Remington, which led to 222 Remington Magnum, which led to 223 Remington / 5.56 NATO, and shortening the cartridge for working through a smaller pistol like 30 Tokarev / 7.62 x 25. As such, it's more or less the same idea seen in the FN 5.7 x 28 cartridge.
The very bottom lines to this story are:
1. You can make a cartridge do amazing things by increasing the velocity, as energy increases by the square of the velocity, i.e. geometrically, and that is almost invariably achieved by increasing the operating pressure. (You make a bigger case and put more powder in it, which generates more energy, which causes an increase in pressure, which drives the bullet faster.)
2. Whatever one does and wherever one goes, there is undoubtedly some factory or company, or some home tinkerer, or some semi-professional type that has been over that ground before, like my friend the surveyor found. It is, in fact, quite common for companies to take an old development, dust it off with minor or no changes, give it a new, shiny name, and throw it on the market.
Regarding this second point, this is not to denigrate some entity, person, or company's effort to bring a new cartridge to market. After all, Newton himself said that he was able to see because he'd stood on the backs of giants. There are not very many Leonardo da Vincis in human history, after all.
Today, with all of the law suits that are filed, it takes a great effort to bring a new cartridge to market, considering all the testing that must be done. This must consider new powders, new projectiles, and new guns (along with all of the old ones that might possibly chamber the new round). Getting something that is an "improvement" is a pretty tall order.
Also, and more importantly, my experience in industry, academics, and in government work has taught me that a good idea is only 20% of the issue at play when bringing a new product to market. 80% of the problem is talking the money out of someone else's pocket into your own, or that of your company's.
Don't believe me? Try it yourself and see: you have to work your way through the bowels of the company (either yours, or the companies your small enterprise is trying to sell the idea to), presenting your idea to umpteen different groups, at umpteen different meetings and conferences. (Tired of work? Hold a meeting!) After all, an enterprise makes its success on getting other people's money, not paying out of its own pocket.
Finally,
3. improvements on the 22 LR are not improvements. Yes, one can tinker with 22 LR and get more of a certain type of performance, but as with most contests, the whole issue depends on the rules of the contest, doesn't it? Sure, you can get more velocity, or use a heavier or lighter bullet, or make alrger/longer case, or neck it down to use a smaller diameter bullet, etc, etc, ad infinitum ad nauseam.
If you examine these improvements, winning such "contests" with the old 22 LR normally involves raising pressures. The old formula for 22 LR success was determined many years ago.
What about when the rules of the contest have to include, the expense of the ammunition, or its universal availability?
What about when the rules of the contest include the cost and thus price of the firearm? Because 22 LR is low intensity, a cheaper firearm with less strength than high pressure rounds can be used to make a product.
What about using rimfire cartridge cases? The cost of the ammunition is reduced, though at some cost to reliability compared to centerfire ammunition.
What about light recoil, acceptable to many shooters, especially new shooters, women, children, or people who are physically challenged?
What about noise? Have you been at a range when someone touches off a 44 Magnum, 357 Magnum, 5.7 x 28, or even a 7.62 x 25 Tokarev? I will guarantee you, while at some ranges, a 9mm Luger being fired won't cause any concern, touching off even a 7.62 Tokarev will get just about everyone's attention!
There have been many attempts at 22 LR improvement in the past: 22 WRF, 22 WMR (aka 22 Magnum), 5mm Remington, 17 Hornady Magnum, etc. Some have lasted, some have not. Some of the improvements may last or may not, as well. But will they take the place of the 22 LR? No! Emphatically, no!
The 22 LR may or may not be the greatest cartridge in the world in someone's opinion (I don't really have a "greatest cartridge" category). I'll just note that underpants are great, and they are universal, and they do a superb job, but that trying to use them as socks or a shirt doesn't work out so well. Underpants are the fundamental part of clothing, but I don't consider them "the greatest," even though I always begin dressing by putting them on.
22 LR has already been "improved." There was the 22 Short, and other permutations. There was the 22 Long, which tried to compete with the 22 LR in price by combining the 22 LR case with the 22 Short bullet. But in the end, the universal acceptance of 22 LR made its manufacturing costs become the lowest, which appeals to many for many good reasons. Where we've arrived with the 22 LR is optimal, therefore, for the jobs that so many use it for. There are new powders -- there always will be. But, if one increases the pressure by using a new powder, the whole thing breaks down, because the new improved version can't be used in every gun the current 22 LR is, and then one loses price and availability advantages.
(Digression here: when considering the 22 LR improvement, remember that it must work well in little guns with 2 inch barrels and others with much longer barrels!)
The bottom line is, sure, you can easily exceed the 22 LR in some category. But you cannot exceed it in the category that matters: everyone wants to buy it and use it because of what it does. So, nothing is going to take its place.
Whether you consider the 22 LR "the greatest" or not, it remains at the top of the hill alone, because it's what people want.
“Fanaticism consists of redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim.”
saying in the British Royal Navy
saying in the British Royal Navy
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mohshar
- Learning the ropes
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- Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:35 pm
Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!
Jr. - I distinctly remember the amount of discussions we have had with the Rock Island Armory (Armscor) management about the 22TCM and it's India potential. My only concern was ammunition availability as it adds to our overhead of getting another caliber to our ammunition line. In my opinion, 22TCM is an amazing and powerful caliber, I shot about 100 rounds and madly in love with it. People who had shot a 22TCM would relate to my experience, it's slide racks like a snake with least effort, smooth is the only word which comes to mind.Jr. wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:20 pmWas doing a bit of research on Rock Island Armory.
They along with Fred Craig are credited with inventing the .22 TCM Cartridge.
A very interesting round.
I append below the comparison between a .22 TCM and .22 LR, as taken from Wikipedia.
.22 TCM - Mass 40 gr. Pointed Flat Nose; Velocity 2,800 ft./s.; Energy 696 ft⋅lbf.
.22 LR - Mass 40 gr. Solid; Velocity 1,200 ft./s; Energy 131 ft⋅lbf.
Note the difference between the two, in both Velocity and Energy respectively.
I doubt if this Cartridge will have any takers in India.
Just wanted to share.
The .45 ACP, .40 S&W and .357MAG will always have a high demand.
Regards,
Jr.
I will like our community's opinion about a combo pistol which can fire both .45ACP and .22TCM and comes as a kit to change barrel and slide (Although I am not sure about the legal angle for a combo multi caliber handgun in India)
@EkManushya - Thanks, it's not far away
@winnie_the_pooh - We only intend to sell in limited numbers every year, maybe anniversary editions with gold plating & engravings.
Regards,
Mohit
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Gurnoor brar
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!
It would be great if conversion kit could be allowed and 45 ACP and 22 lr would also be a great combination
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asifalikhanasif
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!
No, you can't sell 2-Calibers to an Individual NPB License, unless that's having both caliber mentioned on it.
you would need a special permission from DM/Commissioner to have both calibers, which i dont think, a common man could get that easily.
"Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer." - The God Father
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mohshar
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!
Hello Asif - To the best of my knowledge, the handguns license in India are issued as NBP bore licenses without any mention of caliber. Any NBP (.45 ACP, 22TCM or anything else not restricted/prohibited) could be sold without restriction, but I don't have a clarity how another pair of barrel and slide (which essentially are pressure bearing components) would be treated by the licensing authorities.asifalikhanasif wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:22 pmNo, you can't sell 2-Calibers to an Individual NPB License, unless that's having both caliber mentioned on it.
you would need a special permission from DM/Commissioner to have both calibers, which i dont think, a common man could get that easily.
Best,
Mohit
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EkManushya
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!
as far as i remember, it mentions bore as well as handgun or rifle etc. like .32 bore pistol / revolver and licensee needs to apply for bore addition for the other boremohshar wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:05 pmHello Asif - To the best of my knowledge, the handguns license in India are issued as NBP bore licenses without any mention of caliber. Any NBP (.45 ACP, 22TCM or anything else not restricted/prohibited) could be sold without restriction, but I don't have a clarity how another pair of barrel and slide (which essentially are pressure bearing components) would be treated by the licensing authorities.asifalikhanasif wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:22 pmNo, you can't sell 2-Calibers to an Individual NPB License, unless that's having both caliber mentioned on it.
you would need a special permission from DM/Commissioner to have both calibers, which i dont think, a common man could get that easily.
Best,
Mohit
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Aksharma.kaplish
- Fresh on the boat
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!
Arms license issued in punjab have caliber as well as pistol or revolver mentioned on them. So this you have to check that what is the condition in other states. I got my license in march this year from mohali and it is written .32 bore pistol on it while my friend who hails from haryana got his license at the same time and has npb pistol/revolver written on it.mohshar wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:05 pmHello Asif - To the best of my knowledge, the handguns license in India are issued as NBP bore licenses without any mention of caliber. Any NBP (.45 ACP, 22TCM or anything else not restricted/prohibited) could be sold without restriction, but I don't have a clarity how another pair of barrel and slide (which essentially are pressure bearing components) would be treated by the licensing authorities.asifalikhanasif wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:22 pmNo, you can't sell 2-Calibers to an Individual NPB License, unless that's having both caliber mentioned on it.
you would need a special permission from DM/Commissioner to have both calibers, which i dont think, a common man could get that easily.
Best,
Mohit
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Jr.
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!
An Arms Licence may or may not have the Bore mentioned,on it.
As mentioned by Aksharma.kaplish some Licence may just have NPB Pistol/Revolver written.
Just to add further clarity to what asifalikhanasif has mentioned.
An acquaintance of mine has a German make Drilling (12 Bore and Rifle combination).
His Licence has both Bores individually mentioned.
Which means he has 2 Firearms a 12 Bore and an Rifle (can’t remember the Caliber) endorsed.
If some one wants to own a .45 ACP with a .22 TCM (Conversion Kit-Slide and Barrel),
He will need to have 2 Firearms endorsed on his Licence.
(2 NPB Pistol or .45 ACP & .22 TCM mentioned individually, as the case may be).
Regards,
Jr.
As mentioned by Aksharma.kaplish some Licence may just have NPB Pistol/Revolver written.
Just to add further clarity to what asifalikhanasif has mentioned.
An acquaintance of mine has a German make Drilling (12 Bore and Rifle combination).
His Licence has both Bores individually mentioned.
Which means he has 2 Firearms a 12 Bore and an Rifle (can’t remember the Caliber) endorsed.
If some one wants to own a .45 ACP with a .22 TCM (Conversion Kit-Slide and Barrel),
He will need to have 2 Firearms endorsed on his Licence.
(2 NPB Pistol or .45 ACP & .22 TCM mentioned individually, as the case may be).
Regards,
Jr.
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kanwar76
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!
That will go pretty well with some "Golden Boys" attire.mohshar wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:43 pmHi Folks,
Excited to share Limited edition Werywin RIA 'Gold plated 1911s in 4.2 inch barrel .45 ACP' (100 deliveries planned in phase one)
Werywin_Gold_RIA.jpg
Regards,
Mohit
*Images are actual representation of Werywin RIA 1911 pistol, property of Werywin Defence Private Limited (India) & Rock Island Armory (USA), not to be distributed or reproduced without prior permission
I am the Saint the Soldier that walks in Peace. I am the Humble dust of your feet, But dont think my Spirituality makes me weak. The Heavens will roar if my Kirpan were to speak...
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mohshar
- Learning the ropes
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Re: ARMSCOR (Rock Island Armory) Coming to India!
kanwar76 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:12 amThat will go pretty well with some "Golden Boys" attire.mohshar wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:43 pmHi Folks,
Excited to share Limited edition Werywin RIA 'Gold plated 1911s in 4.2 inch barrel .45 ACP' (100 deliveries planned in phase one)
Werywin_Gold_RIA.jpg
Regards,
Mohit
*Images are actual representation of Werywin RIA 1911 pistol, property of Werywin Defence Private Limited (India) & Rock Island Armory (USA), not to be distributed or reproduced without prior permission
Average response time for emergency services is 15 minutes, 357 Magnum has a response time of 1400 feet/second