Accidental fire from my iof .32 revolver with safety on.

[Ramandeep]

WoW! that is the most unfortunate thing to happen an accidental discharge of a gun, gladly no one was hurt.

xl_target, you have rightly pointed about carrying a gun properly in a holster rather than just tucking it in a waist band, I believe if one is using his weapon in a conceal carry situation, then i guess one has to choose the holster very properly it should have good quality clips which are snugged properly in the pants or waistband and holds the holster properly should have a band/clip which goes at the back of the grip of gun which hold the gun securely and more importantly the holster should be as such it covers the whole trigger area so to avoid firing the trigger in a rush situation and also the material of holster inside touching skin should be sweat friendlyto prevent holster slipping away with the moisten of sweat.

Timmy, WOW! how informative post you have put, never ever gave the thought about safety of hammer on the revolver, I thought it to be simple in IOF just put the manual safety and Voila! its safe to carry I am highly enlightened by your post. But sadly if we have to put 1 chamber empty as in to avoid the accidental discharge by hammer dropping then it clearly beats the purpose of self defense/counter attack scenario.

[Ramandeep]

Fact is people who actually run the machines at all the IOFs have no clue about the development and designs of firearms across the world. Those who oversee these project have even lesser idea and those who come up with a project idea and send it for approval to the Ministry are the ones who know the least about guns. I can say this with such confidence because I am watching them for 25 years. Since almost all the machines are computer controlled and follow CAD the mantra is : Control A, Control C and Control V

Cheers
TC

You have rightly pointed people in IOF have no clue about the evolution of guns happening around the world. I think they really lack the will to make anything at all, they are just blindly doing their routine, what should have been a place for innovation has become a place for copying quality products and making the most degraded copies one could possibly imagine, no concern and scope for R&D.

[captrakshitsharma]

I would not like to beat the same point again and again and make you feel bad however XL is right and has been very polite. Please take some understand the workings of the weapon you carry. Use proper accessories and procedures to carry the gun and always be aware and mindful of what you are carrying and your surroundings. Golden rules of gun safety are not to be taken lightly , never get casual while carrying . Have you gun looked at by a good qualified and reputed gunsmith. Be safe... Lesson learnt... And hey don't beat yourself dead u are not the first or the last guy to have had a negligent discharge (no pun intended) learn from it and be thankful to god.

[timmy]

. . . never ever gave the thought about safety of hammer on the revolver . . .

Yes, unfortunately, that word "safety" gets abused by marketeers and the "true believers" like so many words with meaning. It is just like counterfeiting money!

My own feeling on the safety is that one is getting close to the real thing when the last part of the gun to hit the primer is positively locked in such a way that a chunk of steel has to disappear for the safety to fail.

For instance, on most modern bolt action rifles, the safety isn't very safe at all -- it really isn't a safety, it is a trigger block. The surface of a small sear keeps the whole thing from going "kablooie!"

Back in the old days, when bolt action rifles were military and needed to be foolproof, the striker was positively locked, such as in the Mauser M96 and M98, the Springfield M1903, and the M1891 Mosin Nagant. It would be almost impossible for a design like that to go off. The old Winchester Model 70 continued this sort of a safety. Newer M98 Mauser actions were "streamlined" to eliminate the bulky looking bolt sleeve (and, at the same time, to eliminate machining steps to save money) and the "safety" became a trigger block.

Even in the old M1911, the inertia firing pin is not locked (not until the Series 80 design) and, under some circumstances, discharge accidentally. Poor old Jeff Cooper; he swore up and down that "cocked and locked" was totally safe -- but it actually isn't.

My old CZ52, with that amazing attention that the Czechs apply, does have a linkage that blocks the movement of the firing pin until the trigger is pulled. You could liken this design to the semi auto equivalent of the blocking bar in a Colt or S&W double action revolver.

Some of this stuff is not straightforward or easy to understand at first glance. It is also most important to note what captrakshitsharma says: something like this has happened to many of us. I still shiver at almost blowing my Brother away with my 12 ga L C Smith at 3 feet many years ago. The hole blown in the pavement stood in mute testimony to both of us of what could have happened, but thank goodness, did not.

So Dany, if we are hard on you, it is because at least some of us have done something similarly bone-headed.

The thing to do now, as captrakshitsharma rightly points out, is for all to listen to us who have come close, but thankfully avoided a horrible accident. We humans can tell our children that the stove is hot and pass on our learning by hard knocks to others, which animals can't do. Let's all learn -- even we old timers can profit from remembering how dangerous a gun can be, and how there is no second chance once the gun goes "bang!"

[bennedose]

I have been following this thread with interest. Pardon me for asking something that sounds like a stupid question, but to me it seems sensible

An unloaded gun is no more dangerous than a club, even in the hands of a child or a criminal. It is the presence of ammunition in the gun that makes it dangerous. Once the gun is loaded there are varying degrees of safety built in (or not built in) but the onus for safety lies in the hands of the person who has that loaded gun on him.

Surely then it should mean that unless one faces some dire need to cary a loaded gun on one's person - there should be no reason to carry a loaded gun at all. The gun and ammunition should be safely separated. In a family gathering with children and friends, I would have thought that there must have been some grave threat perception to carry a loaded gun. I understand that this is none of my business, but what about issues like machismo, pride and the possibility that for a man with a gun even non threatening situations may be seen as a threat that needs carriage of a loaded gun.

If I look at it from the viewpoint of an unarmed person who is attending say a wedding reception or birthday party. Under normal circumstances this person may face a very low threat of being shot. But his risk of acidental injury in increased by the presence of people with loaded guns whose own threat perceptions make them carry loaded guns in family and social gatherings.

Surely, unless there is a dire need to carry a loaded gun, the gun and ammunition should be separate and safe.

Timmy I would like to hear how your 12 ga shogun went off with your brother nearby

[captrakshitsharma]

Unloaded guns belong in long term storage safes. If you carry you do so to make sure in the eventuality of a life threatening encounter with a beast or a criminal , your tool is ready to be used With minimal prep and intervention . You will not get the time to load a handgun in such a situation. Threat perception is a personal call of judgement, maybe the threat is not at the gathering but on way to and fro ? So I my honest opinion I beg to differ from bennedose.i may be incorrect but its my choice and opinion. Most of us discharge guns accidentally because of familiarity and ease with them and being careless and negligent because of the comfort factor after being around them for ages. I will admit to blowing a hole in my bedroom wall with a 12 ga shotgun when I was showing my wife how to safely load and unload it and cock and decock it (old hammered British shotty) . I was stunned and scared and was bothered was days with the possible repercussions. Thankfully the bed room being unusually long at about 25 +feet a hole in a brick wall and a bruised finger was all that I got. My mistakes...
1. Gun handling instructions indoor and not at a range was my first cardinal mistake .
2. A loaded gun and de cocking it with a live cartridge indoors and my thumb slipping as I was a bit too familiar with it and hence complacent .
What I learnt was to never forget basics of gun safety.
AD /N D's happen but again learn and vow to never make the same mistake again.

[Ramandeep]

Unloaded guns belong in long term storage safes. If you carry you do so to make sure in the eventuality of a life threatening encounter with a beast or a criminal , your tool is ready to be used With minimal prep and intervention . You will not get the time to load a handgun in such a situation. Threat perception is a personal call of judgement, maybe the threat is not at the gathering but on way to and fro ?.

[vicky1730]

I have queries about the safety aspect of the other handguns

1. Does the iof .22 revolver have same issue as iof.32. If it is based off the S&W that problem should be solved or do we still have iof do a botch up?

2. Does the new iof Prahar not solve the issue?

3. Is the newly launched Webley .32 revolver also similarly unsafe?

[timmy]

vicky: Here are my thoughts on your questions:

1. If you study the lockwork of the old Webley revolvers on which the IOF revolvers are patterned, you will see a "rebound level" that is under the mainspring and returns the trigger and rebounds the hammer. I have not been able to view the IOF lockwork, but I suspect that the "Smith & Wesson contribution" to the newer IOF revolvers is what Smith & Wesson calls the "rebound slide" which replaces the function of the Webley designs rebound lever. I expect that this was part of an IOF effort to make the revolver cheaper to manufacture by requiring less hand fitting. Unfortunately, I don't think our inventors at IOF copied the Smith & Wesson hammer block that goes with it. Instead, they put a kludgey safety on the side that serves no good purpose and still doesn't make the revolver safe to carry with a round under the hammer. Without this hammer block feature, or another design that performs the same function of blocking the hammer when it is not cocked and there's a round under the chamber, the revolver is not safe to carry with a round in the chamber under the hammer. Although the gun is chambered for six rounds, it is really only a five shot weapon.

2. If the Prahar shares the same internal lockwork as the other IOF revolvers, then #1 above applies. As the pictures I see appear to show some sort of hammer block safety which would only work when the hammer is cocked, I would assume this to be the case until it is demonstrated otherwise.

3. If the new Webley uses the same lockwork as the older models, yes.

Back in 1900, Iver Johnson introduced a "transfer bar" system (they called that part the "lifter") that prevented the hammer from striking the firing pin unless the trigger was purposely pulled all the way back. Until the lifter was raised to strike the firing pin, the hammer simply rested on the frame, making it impossible to discharge the weapon with a round under the hammer unless the trigger was deliberately pulled. The Ruger single and double action revolvers use a similar "transfer bar" system to make their revolvers safe to carry with a round under the hammer.

Around 1905, Colt introduced a hammer block in their "Police Positive" revolvers and then extended this feature into their medium and large framed revolvers. Smith & Wesson incorporated a similar hammer block around the time of World War 2 -- almost 80 years ago. This function works opposite of the transfer bar: a steel blocking part is in between the hammer and frame of the revolver, and it is not lowered until the trigger is deliberately pulled.

As i watch the videos of the people assembling firearms at the IOF factory, I am reminded that they are folks with families to support, just like the rest of us, and are probably very nice people to meet and talk to. It is a shame that they are all working to assemble an inferior product that does not even have the basic safety provisions of a century ago. IOF's hammer block safety is doubly damning, as it confers the idea of safety with a revolver that is not safe to carry with a round under the hammer. As this could have been remedied with the same effort it took to include a proper blocking or transfer bar safety, such as those used over 100 years ago, I find that I must dismiss iOF revolvers with little respect. Apparently, they do go "boom" -- i hope i can give them that much. But the question here is when they go "boom", and who they are pointed at when they do.

[casual shooter]

40 years ago, my Dad taught me " Never to trust a safety catch" specially on a firearm". I still follow dilligently.

[rajpatimishra]

I own IOF Mark1 since 2004 . One fine morning siting infornt of computer on a chair , gun fully loaded , pointed towards monitor further to windows out side on road. Very new to ownership and trying to familaise with weapon . shifted safety lock and started pulling trigger slowly . Alone in the room , may be at around some point realised that its loaded and ready to fire, slowly reverted and promise to never repeat such things in future . Never ever faced anything saince last 19 years of ownsership.

When I was child may be 13 yrs old , my uncle a Militray man come on annual leave . His 12 bore gun was put up on a hanger /Khunti . whenever i go to that room just pull trigger if none is around , this happens days together , some chori dacaiti was going on around so it was always loaded and a patta with 24 kartus were always over there , so one day I pull up hammer and pull he trigger , gun fired , patta broken and fell on ground with bang , i fell as well due to norvousness and fear as to pitai is now passibleby parents . nothing happened in room , only chipoff from brick was noticed from roof . This afinity brought mw to table to own a gun one days . Today I am 55 .