.244 H&H Mag. group shift problem.

[Grumpy]

I have vague memories of reading somewhere about the rear bedding screw being loose causing vertical stringing and the front causing horizontal stringing as well so Mark might well be on to something there. I have to admit that I`ve never come across a problem as specific as this before - usually bedding problems are pretty obvious.
Let us know how your friend gets on Mack The Knife as I - for one - find this problem decidedly intriguing.

[Mack The Knife]

Will do, Grumpy. Going over in a couple of hours to have a look at the old girl.

Talked to the person last night and once again he assured me that both stock screws were tight.

Mack The Knife

[Mack The Knife]

Have just returned after having seen the rifle and herewith my observations and recollections:

1) The action is not sitting in it's original stock as the original was made for someone who needed a severe cast-off (right hand - left eye). Hence, I would say the inletting is acceptable but not excellent - especially aft of the front screw lug.

2) The stocks screws have not eaten into the wood whilst tightening and the screws tighten snugly. Threads are in good condition.

3) The barrel is free floated - used a plasticky business card to check this. However, the barrel is much closer to the left fore-end tip. Could this cause a problem from a over heated barrel (12 to 13 continuous shots)?

4) The crown is fine. Forgot to check the chamber and did not look very closely at the bore.

5) The scope mount screws were loose for my liking and I only tried them for torque when I noticed that the reticle was a bit off. However, it should be noted that according to the user the reticle hasn't shifted. It is also possible that my natural hold made the rifle cant a bit to the left. All this needs to be looked at more closely - had to leave early as my wife had locked herself out of the house.

I will go back this evening to align the reticle (using a rifle clamp, spirit level and plumb-bob). May degrease and use Loctite 243 Removeable Threadlock on the action screws and then try it at his range tomorrow morning.

Having seen the target in question (will take a pic and post it here tonight), I don't think it's shooter error considering the range was only 60 yards.

From memory...the target was a 5.5" dia Birchwood Casey Shoot-N-C Target stuck on a cardboard carton. First shot was about 1" above the target and at 11 o'clock. Sights were then adjusted and shots 2, 3 an 4 were within the 9 ring (2.5" dia) and about 3/4" to the right. The first four were with reloaded ammo. Fifth shot was factory ammo and landed within the group created by shots 2, 3 and 4.

6th shot went about 8" left and if I am not mistaken about 3" high. I forget the placement of the remaining shots but they were all to the left and equally divided between 3" high and centre.

More to follow as things progress. In the meanwhile if you have any other tips or suggestions please do mention them.

Regards.

Mack The Knife

[Mark]

Mark& Grumpy-
seems like we're reaching a common consensus on Tele gunsmithing-Its all in a screw-tongue firmly in cheek!

<SNIP>
After finding the culprit, would it help to pillar bed the rifle?
<MORE SNIP>

Axx

I wouldn't pillar bed this rifle. Most likely what I would do is epoxy small disks of a matching color wood into the holes to get the thickness back up to original dimensions.

This is an old and quite classic rifle, and deserves to be treated with a little reverence! I do not think it will see the handling that a newer rifle might see and it will probably be another 80 years before the stock shrinks enough to be worrysome again.

Also, if this is built on a M98 action, perhaps someone has an extra stock you could put it into to see if that solves this problem. If you need a stock, I have one you can borrow

Mark

[Mark]

Sorry for the late response on the previous post, I had neglected to hit "send" for a couple hours!

If you put a shim under the action, it will lift the barrel up from the channel enough to where it will have all the clearance it needs.

There are many ways to level a scope, another one is to remove the scope from the rings, then level the gun in teh gun vise by putting the level over just the bottom ring halves, and then putting the scope in them and putting the level on the top turret.

Also, I like to put rubber cement on the bottom half of the ring to keep the scope from shifting. Put one light coat, let dry and then another light coat and let that one dry, then install top ring halves and you're done.

[Mack The Knife]

Most likely what I would do is epoxy small disks of a matching color wood into the holes to get the thickness back up to original dimensions.

Mark, your mention of matching colour wood means you want the shims on the outer surface rather than within the inletting? From what I have seen, the screw hasn't dug into the stock.

Also, if this is built on a M98 action.

I am not terribly good at this but it looked like a Mauser action to me, though the safety catch looked a bit different from the traditional three position flag safety catch.

This is an old and quite classic rifle, and deserves to be treated with a little reverence!

Other than that, it also has a history behind it but I would prefer not to get into details as the owner may want his privacy.

Mack The Knife

[Mack The Knife]

If you put a shim under the action, it will lift the barrel up from the channel enough to where it will have all the clearance it needs.

True but could I use plastic or metal shims? When I say shims, I am refering to washers.

There are many ways to level a scope, another one is to remove the scope from the rings, then level the gun in teh gun vise by putting the level over just the bottom ring halves, and then putting the scope in them and putting the level on the top turret.

This is how I do it except for the last underlined bit as I have found the top turret isn't always as level as we think it is. Then again, I have mostly been exposed to cheap scopes, so that is where the problem lies. This one has a 2-7 Kahles on top.

Also, I like to put rubber cement on the bottom half of the ring to keep the scope from shifting. Put one light coat, let dry and then another light coat and let that one dry, then install top ring halves and you're done.

Could you give me some common examples of rubber cement. Not quite sure what it is. Would Fevibond be appropriate? http://www.pidilite.com/products/consum ... sumer.html

Thanks.

Mack The Knife

[Mark]

Mack The Knife,

You learn something new every day, I thought rubber cement was one of the great inventions developed in India! You can use it on paper and it will not shrink when it dries, so it is good for artwork and photographs.

Here is a link I just pulled off the internet:

http://www.pearlpaint.com/shop~ocID~100 ... ID~997.htm

In addition to rubber cement, double-sided tape works good too. Just remember that you only need it on the lower ring half.

When I was talking about filling up the space in the stock with disks of wood, I was primarily answering the question about whether or not this particular stock could use pillar bedding.

If this is a mauser based action, the front lug will be rectangular. You can either cut up some small pieces of plastic (ask your friend to bring along his wifes credit card!) to fit in the bottom of the lug recess in the stock OR use something like a business card cut to fit the action just ahead of the front lug. If shimming at the action does not make a difference, try putting a slight pressure point under the barrel at the forend, about 5 CM back from the tip. Make it thick enough to put about 10-20 pounds of upward pressure on the barrel.

[Mack The Knife]

You learn something new every day.

Me too.

In addition to rubber cement, double-sided tape works good too. Just remember that you only need it on the lower ring half.

Wouldn't double sided tape be a bit too thick? The ones I have seen here are about 2mm thick. For the moment, we have aligned the reticles and tightened the mounts using Loctite 243. If that doesn't work I will use the rubber cement.

When I was talking about filling up the space in the stock with disks of wood, I was primarily answering the question about whether or not this particular stock could use pillar bedding.

Okay, I get it now.

If this is a mauser based action, the front lug will be rectangular.

Looked circular, as I recall.

Thanks once again, Mark.

We will be shooting the rifle tomorrow morning and hopefully it's all tickety boo. Will keep your tip about point pressure at the fore-end in mind.

Now I just hope I don't forget to take the camera this time...

Mack The Knife

[Mack The Knife]

It appears the culprit was nothing more than loose scope mounts.

The first two shots were very enouraging but since the zero had shifted, we needed to re-zero the rifle. Whilst there was no scattering, the shots did not go exactly where we intended them to go. For example, if we adjusted the elevation to hit 2" low, it would hit 3" low. Or was it the shooting? I was expecting sub-MOA groups at this range (45 strides), so it is still a bit disappointing. Should try that point pressure Mark recommended.

All shots were chrono'd (Chrony Beta). Reloaded shots registered about 150 ft./sec. higher. Factory loads hit 2.5" to 3" to the left of the zero.

We will be doing some more testing with four different bullet weights at a later date and I will report back.

Last but not least, I got to shoot a .244 H&H Magnum and I consider that a privelege bearing in mind where we live. The first shot took me by surprise as I had a light to medium pressure hold (used to airguns and rimfires) on the pistol grip and the grip almost flew out of my hand. Surprisingly enough, the shot hit 4" to the right with no change in elevation. Since, I was now prepared for the next shot, it went well - to the extent that I could actually follow through (the rifle returned to battery faster than I expected) and call the shot accurately.

I am sorry for not taking any pics but I was already running late by the time we finished, leave alone packed up.

Got to rush again but before I push off, I would like to thank all for their help.

Mack The Knife

[Grumpy]

Thanks for letting us know what the problem was Mack The Knife. It was beginning to look like it was a sighting problem - ain`t hindsight a wonderful thing !
I`ve never shot a .244 H&H but have shot a .240 and that produced more recoil than I was anticipating - more than a .243 Win anyway.

[Mack The Knife]

I`ve never shot a .244 H&H but have shot a .240 and that produced more recoil than I was anticipating.

This .240, is it also known as the .240 Apex?

Mack The Knife

[mehulkamdar]

Mack The Knife,

The 240 Holland and Holland is known in the US as the 240 Apex. But this post is about a 244 H&H Magnum also called the 244 Rimless Magnum, isn't it? Both are different rounds, hence the question...

[Mack The Knife]

Both are different rounds, hence the question...

Yes, I am aware that they are different rounds but not quite sure what your question is?

Mack The Knife

[mehulkamdar]

I thought the topic was about a 244 Mag. Wondered if you had a 240 rifle with the same problem as well?