Webley-Sial Mk4 Revolver launched in India!

[dsen]

[Peacefulguns]

Looks good. Very costly though.

[sourabhsangale]

Hope comes in market asap .

[UDAYANJADHAV]

If revolver is so costly, I wonder what price they will charge for their 1911. Hoping to see Glocks soon.

[AgentDoubleS]

What a total rip off for a 100 year old design.

[sourabhsangale]

Yaa its a rip off but still good as compared to india product. We should encourage these companies so that iof comes to end .

[partheus]

What a total rip off for a 100 year old design.

How can it be a rip off when it's being reintroduced by its inventing company? Sure, it's being made in India, but its still a Webley.

Although, I do hope they quickly move up the caliber food chain. 32s make no sense in a revolver, given the only advantage they enjoy over semi-autos is their ability to hold longer, more powerful cartridges. A Mk IV in 357 mag will help them score a bigger market chunk. It's already been done by Anderson Wheeler in UK, so, it's definitely possible ->

http://andersonwheeler.co.uk/the-gun-room/revolver/

[AgentDoubleS]

How can it be a rip off when it's being reintroduced by its inventing company? Sure, it's being made in India, but its still a Webley.

For exactly that reason- the company introducing it and the model being introduced both lost relevance half a century ago!

[timmy]

What a total rip off for a 100 year old design.

32s make no sense in a revolver, given the only advantage they enjoy over semi-autos is their ability to hold longer, more powerful cartridges. A Mk IV in 357 mag will help them score a bigger market chunk. It's already been done by Anderson Wheeler in UK, so, it's definitely possible ->

http://andersonwheeler.co.uk/the-gun-room/revolver/

The British revolver described by the link is a far cry from what the OP in this thread posted. The gun in the link is based on the big Webley revolver that was used by the British Military until it was replaced in service by the smaller Mk. II 38/200 revolver.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webley_Revolver

All you have to do is look at the revolver shown on the Anderson Wheeler page and note the front of the cylinder: note how much metal is between each chamber. That's because these large framed guns were intended for 0.45" caliber cartridges, and using even high pressure rounds like 357 Mag is made much easier, because the smaller diameter leaves so much more metal between the chambers.

A contraire, but 32 makes a lot of sense, especially in a revolver!!! It stands to reason that the larger the diameter of the cartridge, the thicker (or wider) the gun must be, but in a revolver, the the additional thickness is added twice and then, the chambers must be more widely spaced around the circumference of the cylinder, too. That's why revolvers that shoot 45 are so large!

32, on the other hand, makes a lot of sense. I admit that, for many years, I considered the 45 Auto supreme, in comparison to the 9 Might Make it. However, the new bullets that ammo makers offer have put such notions of 9mm inferiority to bed. Both 45 and 9mm are approximately of the same ft-lbs / joule range, and expanding bullets in 9mm make the cartridge about as effective as 45 Auto in many cases.

This translates well to 32 caliber cartridges that have enough power to expand a bullet reliably, also (which leaves out 32 Auto and 32 S&W Long). Ruger has been pushing the new 327 Magnum, and the 32 H&R magnum isn't anything to sneeze at, either. 6 chambers of 32-sized cartridges still allow for a fairly slim revolver; more slim that even a 38 sized revolver if designed optimally.

Also, while 357 Mag sounds so "hot" as a cartridge, don't think of it as being so hot in a snub nosed revolver with a 50mm to 70mm barrel. It looses lots of power, being shot out of that short barrel with a gap, and doesn't offer a whole lot more than a good +P 38 Special load.

A new, solid frame revolver in 327 Magnum would not leave very many people wanting in the self-defense department, in other words. But these cartridges aren't really well suited in weak, break top designs that are as modern as Queen Victoria (and which are unsafe, too).

Even a Colt Police Positive or Police Positive Special (the Special version IS long enough to take 38 Special length in a small frame, thus the name) is light years more modern than that old break open Webley, the IOF, or the "modern" thing shown by the OP. When you get into revolver designs like the Ruger, or especially more so like Chiappa or Korth, the old Webley is positively ancient.

As far as it is supposedly still a "Webley", check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webley_%26_Scott If it is still thought to be a Webley, I I suppose so, as the company has been bought and the name applied to the same design in this case. Is that still a Webley? If a buyer would like to think of it like that, I guess it is.

[timmy]

Just to add to my previous thoughts, Ruger's LCR and LCRx revolvers are 6 shot in 327 Magnum, rather than 5 shots for the 38 models. They are a modern design of modern manufacture:

https://ruger.com/products/lcr/overview.html

They also sell on the street for 3.5 times less than that ancient thing shown by the video the OP posted. If there was a friendly administration that would treat them well and make conditions right for a fair and open market, I'll bet Ruger would just love to set up a factory in India, hire Indians, and go to work making these things and selling them. I think lots of people would buy them, especially if the price was around half a lakh.

But, all of this is only fantasy on my part, I know -- sorry.

[partheus]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Timmy. I am well aware the model introduced by Wheeler is based on the larger Mk VI Webleys and not the smaller Mk IVs. I should've clarified I meant they can bring out something in a similar size. I reckon a medium frame with a 5 or 6 inch barrel would make sense here.

Also, I was specifically referring to the 32 cals offered currently, and not 32 cal in general. Both 32 S&W and 32 ACP are good places to start since they're very popular here in India. And they certainly can go the H&R or 327 route if they find it worthwhile, but the venerable 357 magnum already has a following. Let's not forget the export potential Webley stands to gain from. A top-break revolver in 357 magnum would attract way more attention than the obscure H&R 32 or the relatively new 327.

[partheus]

As far as it is supposedly still a "Webley", check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webley_%26_Scott If it is still thought to be a Webley, I I suppose so, as the company has been bought and the name applied to the same design in this case. Is that still a Webley? If a buyer would like to think of it like that, I guess it is.

I suppose so. In any case, I think we can all agree, their products certainly don't qualify as rip-offs since they are officially being launched by the Webley brand's current owners.

[partheus]

How can it be a rip off when it's being reintroduced by its inventing company? Sure, it's being made in India, but its still a Webley.

For exactly that reason- the company introducing it and the model being introduced both lost relevance half a century ago!

I highly doubt it has lost relevance. You assume firearm purchases are purely and always utilitarian, wherein the newer models will always prevail. When Colt bounced back from its bankruptcy, it could've refined its models and gone the new age way. But, people were in fact begging it to bring back the Python.

Likewise, while Chiappa is known for the Rhino series, the company actually makes most of its coin selling reproductions of old west cowboy firearms, including the Colt SAA. Cimarron firearms and Uberti specialize in old west replicas too and both are doing just fine. There is a market for older designs and I feel Webley will fit a niche somewhere in there.

Personally, I am a huge fan of the top break, self-extracting system that came with the Webley.

[AgentDoubleS]

....because the smaller diameter leaves so much more metal between the chambers.
...

Thanks for the very insightful post, Timmy, always enlightening to read.

break top designs that are as modern as Queen Victoria

And entertaining:) My IOF might just take that as a compliment!

Partheus, if you read my post carefully you will notice I said “What a rip off for a 100 year old design” ... not “What a rip off of a 100 year old design”. The post is not about IP infringement, it’s about the price of 1.6lakh for a 100 year old design.

Sure somebody could make and sell an antediluvian Premier Padmini, or a Contessa, sure it will have a novelty value. But if they charge as much as a Skoda Superb for it and market it as a mode of daily transport, it’ll be a total rip off.

I own some off the novelties you mention, including the immaculately made Uberti. Guess how much I paid for it? Equivalent of Rs 15,000. And some here thought I paid too much.

Novelties can be bought and kept in places where firearms can be collected in reasonable quantities . In India, what we need is a modern reliable firearm made at affordable prices - like a Ruger LCR. Not a 100 year old design, sold at a ‘rip off’ price, being passed off as a ‘Webley’.


For what it’s worth Webley ceased production of their revolvers when India banned import of firearms. They did not have any market in the world for their ageing designs except us! They moved to manufacturing air guns Turkey, I doubt if they are still British owned.

[timmy]

Also, I was specifically referring to the 32 cals offered currently, and not 32 cal in general. Both 32 S&W and 32 ACP are good places to start since they're very popular here in India. And they certainly can go the H&R or 327 route if they find it worthwhile, but the venerable 357 magnum already has a following. Let's not forget the export potential Webley stands to gain from. A top-break revolver in 357 magnum would attract way more attention than the obscure H&R 32 or the relatively new 327.

Sorry about that, Partheus; your point here is well taken. I was thinking narrowly about extending what the market already has, which is 32 caliber guns. There is certainly nothing wrong with the 357, though, and thinking about an export version where India could make a little extra would be a welcome thing.

How can it be a rip off when it's being reintroduced by its inventing company? Sure, it's being made in India, but its still a Webley.

For exactly that reason- the company introducing it and the model being introduced both lost relevance half a century ago!

I highly doubt it has lost relevance. You assume firearm purchases are purely and always utilitarian, wherein the newer models will always prevail. When Colt bounced back from its bankruptcy, it could've refined its models and gone the new age way. But, people were in fact begging it to bring back the Python.

Likewise, while Chiappa is known for the Rhino series, the company actually makes most of its coin selling reproductions of old west cowboy firearms, including the Colt SAA. Cimarron firearms and Uberti specialize in old west replicas too and both are doing just fine. There is a market for older designs and I feel Webley will fit a niche somewhere in there.

Personally, I am a huge fan of the top break, self-extracting system that came with the Webley.

Here, I would point out that the Python is an example that I don't feel directly relates to the OP's posted video. It would be more akin to your A&W link, in that the Python was really a semi custom gun. Special care was taken in its polishing and bluing, and the lockwork was hand tuned for a legendary level of performance.

My old Colt double actions (Army Special and Officer's Model) would be the basic and above basic, respectively, models of the same basic gun in size and design, only 30-40 years older. The care given to the finish of the Army Special exceeds anything made today - you can't compare paint, no matter how fancy, to the authentic Colt Royal Blue, and the Officer's Model takes this a step further with a more detailed polish and a blue that's almost like a cobalt water color. As amazing as the workmanship of these two is, the Python is yet another, and much higher, level of fit and finish.

I should add here that every gun that's discontinued always brings howls of pain and agony after it's gone from the market. Of course, it's always easier to cry about what one can't have than it is to pay the money and buy it when it's available. Everyone whined about the loss of the original Model 70 Winchester, for instance, but nobody would pay Winchester what it cost to make it -- they went and bought a cheaper Remington. When Remington discontinued the nice little 600 and 660 carbines, there was whining -- but nobody bought them when they were available. This list goes on and on! I wouldn't pay much attention to whiners like that.

But your point of bringing out these sorts of weapons for niche markets is still a good one. It would call for some pretty clever and intelligent management to make it go, as having a range of such products would call for a lot of different manufacturing practices. But the bottom line would always be that niche market products would probably need to ride on a few mass market ones.

I'd have to hold one of those A&W weapons to see what they're really like, as photos can deceive.

The break top design is nice for instant ejection and access to the back of the cylinder for reloading is unrivaled by swing out cylinders, agreed. But my reading indicates that break top designs were never as strong or maintenance free as a solid frame design. I would guess that some good modern, metallurgy and design refinement could take care of the strength issues, for the most part, but the robustness, especially with high intensity cartridges in the 9mm - 357 - 44 Mag range are going to place stresses on things that even better metallurgy may not address.

Please don't take me wrong - the design is not something to which I object. In fact, the handgun I would love to have more than any other is the Webley Fosbery. Having something because you like it is the pinnacle of having a gun, I think, regardless of high or low value.

But my feeling is, if someone came out with a nice alloy framed, modern, practical weapon like the Ruger I posted and marketed them in India, I bet that they would sell like hot cakes. Women would have them in their purses and men in their waistbands. Once that is established, moving on to longer barrels, target sights, fine finishes, etc. would have no trouble following. The public would be happy. The dealers would be happy. The gun clubs would be happy. The only people who wouldn't be happy are the haters, but then again, I don't think those types can ever be happy, as there's always some part of someone else's life they need to correct.