TOKAREV PISTOL .30 CALIBER (7.62MM)

[Vineet]

Mostly available are Chinese Norinco made. The quality of these Chinese pistols is very good.

Counterfeit made in Pakistan/Darra/India are also there in huge numbers. Buyer should be aware of them.

[sushant042005]

Hi can anyone suggest if replacing a TT30 with a Weffen .32 Browing will be a good deal? Can post pics also if required.
Thanks and regards

[Vikram]

Hi can anyone suggest if replacing a TT30 with a Weffen .32 Browing will be a good deal? Can post pics also if required.
Thanks and regards

If the purpose of keeping a handgun is self-defence, the TT30 is miles ahead of a .32ACP. In terms of value also I think it costs more.

Please do not post the same question in ten different threads.

[timmy]

Just wanting to add here: The Tokarev design is mostly good, for its original military purpose. Many of the Chinese copies I've seen are serviceable weapons, but often have a crude finish.

The main problem with the TT design is that there is no safety. Some exports of surplus weapons to the USA, or newly made Chinese versions, have either a trigger block safety that's just behind the trigger on the left hand side, or have a Colt government 1911 look alike safety on the left hand side. Neither of these are worth the powder to blow them up when using the pistol as concealed carry or self defense. Both of these safeties (although they don't deserve the term) are unsafe, as they depend upon the sear engagement with the hammer to provide their function.

the issue here is, if one is carrying the Tokarev "cocked and locked" depending on one of these safeties, dropping the weapon so that it lands on the hammer (the heavy end of the weapon, so most likely to hit the ground first) can easily break the sear or the notch in the hammer, causing an accidental discharge. This, as any reasonable person can tell, is not going to make for a happy day.

The original design depended on the half cock notch in the hammer for a safety. While not as bad as the "safeties" mentioned above, due to the stout construction of the half cock notch, it is still possible for an accidental discharge to happen if the weapon is dropped.

Now, I don't know about you, but my anatomy in that area is not very accepting of risk, when it comes to an accidental discharge happening at my feet with the barrel pointing straight up. I have a Norinco 213 in 9mm, pretty much the same weapon, and I do not trust it to carry "cocked and Locked"

Another option one might consider is carrying with a round in the chamber, and the hammer down. In this mode, one only needs to thumb the hammer back (somewhat of a chore on a Tokarev, due to the very stiff hammer spring) to bring the weapon to ready. The problem here is that many Tokarevs have a firing pin that protrudes into the chamber when the hammer is down. You would have the hammer resting on a live primer in this case, which IS NOT SAFE! Any blow to the hammer (not even a drop) could be sufficient to fire the weapon, again with an accidental discharge in the area of some very important personal equipment!

Teh only real way to carry the Tokarev safely is with the chamber empty, which means one must rack the slide in order to bring the weapon to ready state. I admit, this is sad news, and is why I don't carry mine -- it's a range toy.

7.62x25 Tokarev is a great cartridge, with as much raw power as 9mm Luger and 45 Auto. For this reason, given the limited choices on the Indian market, it's very understandable why such a chambering would be very attractive.

I've laid out before you the issues with the Tokarev when used as a carry weapon. This may give you something to think about.

[Vineet]

The problem in India is that import of firearms is banned from last 35 years. Most of second hand imported weapons that are available are 70-80 years old.

Tokarev is a very good pistol if you can own one in India. It is simply reliable, powerful, sleek. Fresh cartridges FMJ as well as hollow points are available in India at very reasonable price.

To prevent the pistol from falling down on loaded chamber, one can carry with neck lanyard attached. All pistols require extra care when carried chamber loaded. Safety exists between the ears.

[timmy]

Vineet, I agree that a lanyard might help mitigate against a Tokarev falling on the hammer over a loaded chamber. On the other hand, someone coming up behind could easily see it and grab it, causing it to break. A positive hammer block safety (such as in the 1911) coupled with a firing pin block (such as in a CZ-52 or Colt 1911 Series 80) or a Double action only striker fired design, such as a Kahr, or any number of other designs, such as used by Glock and others, are methods that no lanyard, or thumb snap holster can match in safety, although they may be useful in their own right.

I agree safety exists between the ears, but this does not take the place of a safe firearm. There simply isn't much in the way of safety in a Tokarev design.

They are a strong design, of that there can be no doubt. The feed lips formed in the modular firing block are a great innovation. The weapon is sleek and narrow -- not much larger or thicker than a Colt Pocket pistol. On the other hand, it is fairly heavy for its size (carrying it in a pocket is fairly obvious for this reason). There's hardly a question that 7.62x25 is one of the most powerful choices for the Indian market, and, as you point out, the gun and ammo can be obtained.

A pistol that is probably harder to get, but which shoots the same cartridge, the Czech CZ 52 9yes, I have one of these, as well) is a much safer choice as a carry weapon. It's not without its faults, but it still would be a better alternative to a Tokarev.

[Vineet]

Vineet, I agree that a lanyard might help mitigate against a Tokarev falling on the hammer over a loaded chamber. On the other hand, someone coming up behind could easily see it and grab it, causing it to break. A positive hammer block safety (such as in the 1911) coupled with a firing pin block (such as in a CZ-52 or Colt 1911 Series 80) or a Double action only striker fired design, such as a Kahr, or any number of other designs, such as used by Glock and others, are methods that no lanyard, or thumb snap holster can match in safety, although they may be useful in their own right.

In India, we have our own sets of problems.

CZ52's are not available in India, 1911 here costs around 12 lacs ruppes (almost double the cost of Tokarev). A good double action pistol like Walther pp/ppk again costs around 12 lacs.

Another problem is that mostly in second hand imported pistols, .32 acp pistols are available here and we have to use Indian made .32 acp cartridges which are not reliable at all.

[eljefe]

I agree that poor IOF ammo quality, whether it’s .22 LR or 155mm howitzer, contributes to the lack of confidence.
Vineet, what are the ammo brands available in India for the Tok?

[Vineet]

Sellier and bellot FMJ, PPU FMJ, PPU JHP, Fiocchi FMJ available in India for Tok.

[eljefe]

Bravo. That’s quite a cornucopia. A lot better than the FMJ .32 from IOF. No wonder the Toks command such rating.
Besides the theoretical stopping power And dangers of half clock- pin resting on primer etc, how many users actually realise / go through practice combat drills? With ammo limitations and sky high ammo costs, half a dozen aimed rounds a month at a stationery target are NOT enough.
If you have a genuine high threat, get a reliable handgun and pay for the imported ammo.
If you’re limited to a Tok, finehone situational awareness,JHP ammo, empty chamber and practice, practice,practice !

[Vikram]

Just wanting to add here: The Tokarev design is mostly good, for its original military purpose. Many of the Chinese copies I've seen are serviceable weapons, but often have a crude finish.

The main problem with the TT design is that there is no safety. Some exports of surplus weapons to the USA, or newly made Chinese versions, have either a trigger block safety that's just behind the trigger on the left hand side, or have a Colt government 1911 look alike safety on the left hand side. Neither of these are worth the powder to blow them up when using the pistol as concealed carry or self defense. Both of these safeties (although they don't deserve the term) are unsafe, as they depend upon the sear engagement with the hammer to provide their function.

the issue here is, if one is carrying the Tokarev "cocked and locked" depending on one of these safeties, dropping the weapon so that it lands on the hammer (the heavy end of the weapon, so most likely to hit the ground first) can easily break the sear or the notch in the hammer, causing an accidental discharge. This, as any reasonable person can tell, is not going to make for a happy day.

The original design depended on the half cock notch in the hammer for a safety. While not as bad as the "safeties" mentioned above, due to the stout construction of the half cock notch, it is still possible for an accidental discharge to happen if the weapon is dropped.

Now, I don't know about you, but my anatomy in that area is not very accepting of risk, when it comes to an accidental discharge happening at my feet with the barrel pointing straight up. I have a Norinco 213 in 9mm, pretty much the same weapon, and I do not trust it to carry "cocked and Locked"

Another option one might consider is carrying with a round in the chamber, and the hammer down. In this mode, one only needs to thumb the hammer back (somewhat of a chore on a Tokarev, due to the very stiff hammer spring) to bring the weapon to ready. The problem here is that many Tokarevs have a firing pin that protrudes into the chamber when the hammer is down. You would have the hammer resting on a live primer in this case, which IS NOT SAFE! Any blow to the hammer (not even a drop) could be sufficient to fire the weapon, again with an accidental discharge in the area of some very important personal equipment!

Teh only real way to carry the Tokarev safely is with the chamber empty, which means one must rack the slide in order to bring the weapon to ready state. I admit, this is sad news, and is why I don't carry mine -- it's a range toy.

7.62x25 Tokarev is a great cartridge, with as much raw power as 9mm Luger and 45 Auto. For this reason, given the limited choices on the Indian market, it's very understandable why such a chambering would be very attractive.

I've laid out before you the issues with the Tokarev when used as a carry weapon. This may give you something to think about.

Thanks for the safety issues to consider, Tim.

[agrawal23]

Congratulations

[pistolero]

I may be in the market soon for a Tok, what does a mint condition TOK cost these days? I did read Vineet's post on the ammo, which is quiet promising. Safety issues are duly noted, will not carry with 1 in the chamber.

Are extra magazines (orignal) available for the TOK?

Look forward to hearing from all of you.

Regards,
-P

[Vineet]

I may be in the market soon for a Tok, what does a mint condition TOK cost these days? I did read Vineet's post on the ammo, which is quiet promising. Safety issues are duly noted, will not carry with 1 in the chamber.

Are extra magazines (orignal) available for the TOK?

Ongoing pistol price is 6 to 7 lacs. Original magazine, grips and all minor parts like recoil spring, firing pin etc available with me. You can PM me.

[pistolero]

Thx Vineet will PM you