Better Choice In 22 or 32

[Lawman]

Which of the following ammos have better velocity, energy and damage-making capacity if fired from a handgun? A .22LR ammo (a popular ammo) or a .32 S&W Long ammo (not a popular ammo, used in IOF revolver) ?

[Grumpy]

The .32 S&W Long is pretty feeble and the 98 gr bullet produces around 115 ft lbs ME from a 4 inch barrel. The .22lr can produce considerably more energy - ie the CCI Stinger and Quik Shok generate 191 ft lbs ME from a rifle length barrel. The only problem is that I am informed that hyper velocity ammunition like the CCI Stingers, Quik Shoks and Velocitors are not available in India.
In practice the range of .22 ammunition available to you means that the energy developed from a short barrelled handgun is likely top be very similar to that of the .32 S&W Long with the .32 having the advantage of a much heavier bullet and, therefore, greater `Knock Down` performance.
The reality is that both the .22 lr and the .32 S&W Long are less than ideal self-defence calibres but to make the best of a very bad job the .32 is probably the better of the two.

[Mack The Knife]

Grumpy,

CCI Stingers are available but the supply is erratic. Last year they wanted Rs.65.00 ($ 1.60 approx) per round.

Mack The Knife

[Grumpy]

About £0.76 ......... So five of them cost more than a box of 50 costs in the UK.......and they`re quite a bit less expensive in the US !
I wouldn`t worry about it too much because there`s no way that the Stingers or Quik Shoks will make 191 ft lbs in a four inch barrel - nowhere near. The little 32 gr bullet isn`t great either. In a rifle I prefer the 40 gr Velocitor which makes a little less ME but hangs on to its energy much better. The only problem is that a lot of new .22 lr rifles specifically warn against the use of hyper velocity .22 lrs ( all three of the CCI rounds mentioned above. Using them in older semis is asking for trouble. I`ve no idea what the situation is with pistols but suspect many of those are not suitable for use with the hyper velocity rounds also......especially the older guns found in India.
I tend to use Eleys 40 gr HV Solids in a rifle because they retain more energy at 100 yards than any of the hyper velocity rounds ( 107 ft lbs @ 100 yards - compared to the Velocitors 104 ft lbs and the Stingers/Quik Shoks 81 ft lbs. ) I just wish they`d use the same 40 gr hollowpoint bullet as is used in the Eley Subsonic Extra Plus.

[Mack The Knife]

Would a hollow point really open up at those velocities?

As discussed in private, I would prefer a 40 grain solid because at these relatively lower velocities, I think that penetration would prove to be more effective - if the shot is placed properly.

Mack The Knife

[Grumpy]

The 40 gr hollowpoint bullet used in the Eley subsonics DOES open up even at the moderate velocities - around 941 fps @ 100 yards - of this cartridge. The Eley HV solid is a very good cartridge though and the 40 gr solid really hangs on to its energy well. It allows for very effective long range Rabbitting and I`ve even taken Foxes with it - head shots of course. I`ve done that with the Subsonics as well though which make 79 ft lbs @ 100 yards.
No .17 HMR at the moment.......not for several months. Had my withdrawel period a while ago but I`m looking to get another one sometime.

[Mack The Knife]

The 40 gr hollowpoint bullet used in the Eley subsonics DOES open up even at the moderate velocities - around 941 fps @ 100 yards - of this cartridge.

At first I thought you had made a mistake but checked the Eley site and you are right.

That is pretty good energy retention.

Here's the link for anyone interested in using these rounds for self protection.

http://www.eley.co.uk/hunting.htm

Mack The Knife

[Mack The Knife]

Grumps, do you have any data showing by how much the three rounds mentioned in the link above penetrate in a human being at close quarters - say, 10 yards max.?

Mack The Knife

[Grumpy]

I presume you mean the three CCI hyper velocity rounds ? I`m sure that there will be data available somewhere. Waste of time asking Federal ( CCIs parent company ) though because their PR is dreadful - utter cr*p !

[Mack The Knife]

No, I was refering to the three Eley rounds mentioned in this link...

http://www.eley.co.uk/hunting.htm

Mack The Knife

[Grumpy]

?????? !!!!!!! This, mate, is the UK - you think Eley will have data on making holes in people ? Get a grip Dodger - I might be in the West but it isn`t the Wild West !
Penetration with .22 lr bullets tends to be quite good in soft tissue ( because of the small diameter ) until they hit bone when they are easily deformed and deflected and shed energy very rapidly because of the low mass and extremely low Sectional Density - around .115 for a 40 gr bullet. Head shots very rarely exit the other side of the skull. Even the 80 gr versions of the .223 Rem only have a SD of .230 - pretty pathetic. Compare that with the 158 gr bullet in the 6.5x55 ( only .256" calibre ) which has an outstanding SD of .344 - which explains why the 6.5x55 has such remarkable performance - far better than the ME figures would suggest - because penetration is exceptional.
You might remember the Fallow Buck I shot last Autumn with a 220 gr 30-06 - SD of .331. At 300 yards range the bullet smashed through the upper left front leg, then a rib, then the heart and lungs, then another rib before exiting the carcase and disappearing into the trees behind. If there had been another deer in the way it would have killed that as well.

[Grumpy]

By the way, the highest SD that I know of is .386 which is achieved by the .333 Jeffery with a 300 gr bullet. Its penetration was so exceptional that sporting rifles in the calibre were issued to British snipers in WWI to deal with German snipers who were using light armour to protect themselves - the bullets shot straight through the armour.......and they were hunting bullets, not armour piercing rounds. The .333 Jeffery had the reputation of being virtually unstoppable - a locomotive of a bullet - a true `Express` although not described as such.

[Mark]

From a 4" barrel, the best thing to do is try to get the biggest bullet you can. If that is a 22, well that's better than nothing! Hyper velocity rounds might kill squirrels better than a regular 40 gr solid, but anything racoon size:



...and larger is best killed with a larger bullet, and once you've seen a 'coon take 7 or 8 hits with stingers and still be able to scamper off you'll realize they aren't anything magical. I haven't used them since the 80's and remember they are only $4.75 a box here. If I remember correctly, they were designed for rabbits, and they should be confined to that size animal.

So if you're wanting for personal defense, my suggestion is choose the biggest choice you have which sounds like a 32 here, and work on your politicians to start allowing other choices for those people who find it necessary to protect their persons.

[Grumpy]

The problem with the Stinger - and Quik Shok - is that they have 32 gr bullets which shed energy very quickly - 40 gr is better which is why the Velocitor is the better hunting cartridge. I know Racoons have a reputation for being tough which means that head shots are best with a .22 lr........and, therefore, a rifle. It`s interesting though that the Eley HV solid - which isn`t a hyper velocity cartridge - retains energy better than any of the hyper velocity cartridges and is an even better long range hunting round
I agree that between the two choices - .22lr and .32 S&W - the .32 is the better choice.............even though it also is a pathetic manstopper.
How is the .22 mag lever action shooting Mark - are you going to have to rebarrel it ?

[Mark]

I don't know if I'll have to rebarrel or not yet, it seems to shoot accurately enough but now I have an extraction problem, with the cases both sticking a little in the chamber and also one of the 2 extractors not grabbing the rim enough so it slips off.

I polished the chamber with some rubbing compound on some steel wool and it helped a lot, though the cases are still just a tiny bit too tight coming out. So next item is to remove the bolt (again!) and disassemble it, reshape the extractor hook, reassemble and see how well it works, then I may need to polish the chamber a bit further.

Explanation to everyone else what happened-

I got a rather interesting rifle, a Marlin 57M which is a 22 magnum lever action with a really short (like 1.4 inch) lever throw. It had been rebarrelled, using a different barrel originally made for a 22LR and then re-chambered. The person fitting the barrel did not do a proper job, so I had to re-do most everything. At that point I still was not sure how accurate it would be, thinking that since everything else was half done probably the chambering was as well, but now it seems to shoot accurately enough but I haven't shot any groups since I have to fish every other round out of the chamber after it fails to extract.

Other than that it is a pretty neat gun.

Mark