Licence application rejected seek help and Guidance :)

The legal aspects of owning, shooting, importing arms/ ammo and other related legal aspects as well as any other legal queries. Please note: This INCLUDES all arms licensing issues/ queries!
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Re: Licence application rejected seek help and Guidance :)

Post by spin_drift » Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:28 am

mundaire wrote: GoodBoyMentor, wishing for something doesn't make it real! If you truly believe that RKBA has been secretly hidden somewhere in our constitution, may I point you to the debate on this issue in the constituent assembly - where this matter was discussed and it was decided to abide by the wisdom of the father of the constitution and not to include RKBA amongst the list of fundamental rights.

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Abhijeet
What about the Arms Act of 1959 itself, it says the following:

"An Act to consolidate and amend the law relating to arms and ammunition."

As far as I know in legal parlance “to consolidate” means to combine (separate pieces of legislation) into a single legislative act and since the Arms Act of 1959 does not specify which previous legislative acts it is a consolidation of. So one can assume that the Arms Act of 1959 is the consolidation of all the previous arms act including Act XXVIII of 1857 and the preamble of the said act (Act XXVIII of 1857) states that it is “An Act relating to the importation, manufacture, and sale of Arms and Ammunition, and for regulating the right to keep or use the same”.

And since Arms Act of 1959 is the consolidation of all the previous arms act including Act XXVIII of 1857 therefore the preamble of Act XXVIII of 1857 should apply to Arms Act of 1959.

Based on the above if preamble of the act (Arms Act of 1959) in question says that it is there to regulate the right of keep and bear arms even though the right is not explicitly enumerated in the Continuation, what does that mean?
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Re: Licence application rejected seek help and Guidance :)

Post by mundaire » Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:45 am

The Arms Act 1959 contains no preamble nor any mention of the right to keep and bear arms...
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Re: Licence application rejected seek help and Guidance :)

Post by goodboy_mentor » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:14 pm

mundaire wrote:GoodBoyMentor, wishing for something doesn't make it real! If you truly believe that RKBA has been secretly hidden somewhere in our constitution, may I point you to the debate on this issue in the constituent assembly - where this matter was discussed and it was decided to abide by the wisdom of the father of the constitution and not to include RKBA amongst the list of fundamental rights.


Cheers!
Abhijeet
mundair, RKBA is not secretly hidden in the Constitution, rather it is clearly mentioned in the Constitution as explained hereunder:

1. Since arms are recognized as fundamental right under Part III, that is why Article 19(1)(b) says "and without arms". If arms are not part of Article 19 or Part III, the question of saying "and without arms" in Article 19(1)(b) does not arise.

2. Since fundamental right to assemble peaceably and with arms exists under Article 19, that is why there exists corresponding fundamental duty of citizens to "protect" and "defend" the State under Articles 51A(c) & (d). Protection and defense of the nation is done with arms, firearms, ammunition and explosives and not bare hands. If there is no RKBA, then citizens cannot have such duty. They are sovereign citizens as per the preamble of the Constitution, thus they cannot have duty without corresponding rights. Also the preamble mentions that citizens will "secure" for themselves...... this "secure" cannot be done without arms.

3. Since arms are fundamental right, that is why on behalf of the citizens, under the Article 246(5) the Central Government can legislate on arms, firearms, ammunition and explosives.

Even if we agree for the limited sake of this discussion that Part III does not recognize RKBA, then are we agreeing that RKBA also does not exist for the Indian State, since Part III guarantees equality? If yes then how is the Indian State issuing license for something over which it has no right?

As per Article 367(1), General Clauses Act 1897 shall apply for the interpretation of Constitution as it applies for the interpretation of an act of the legislature. Courts have also ruled that not only the general definitions given in General Clauses Act, but also the general rules of construction given therein are applicable to the Constitution. Therefore the question of going into preamble, objects and reasons or debates does not arise because the above mentioned Articles are very clear in themselves.

Even if we read the debates, because of fresh volatile experience of 1947, the main fear of Constituent Assembly was armed peaceable assembly turning violent. That is why peaceable assembly without arms is preferred mode of combination of rights under Article 19. This does not mean that combination of peaceable assembly with arms does not exist.

Utterance of Father of the Constitution does not carry much meaning since the plain reading of Constitution itself is very clear about RKBA and the right to equality exists in Part III. At the best his utterances can be dismissed as done without application of mind or for just public consumption.
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Re: Licence application rejected seek help and Guidance :)

Post by goodboy_mentor » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:43 pm

The most telling evidence that RKBA has been recognized by the Constitution is Article 25, when it says: "The wearing and carrying of kirpans shall be deemed to be included in the profession of the Sikh religion." The word Kirpan is made from two words “Kirpa” (mercy, grace or kindness) and “Aan” (honor). Thus it has wide meaning i.e. “one that protects the honor” of self, family, home and others. Part III of the Constitution is talking about individual rights. In this context, please note that the Constitution has deliberately not used the word sword or dagger or kirpan(in singular form) etc. but used the word kirpans(in plural form) to denote a wide meaning to cover any number or type of weapons that an individual can wear or carry to protect the honor. Since arms are part of conscience and human and natural rights of people in India, that is why wearing and carrying of kirpans is recognized as a fundamental right of a sui generis sovereign and distinct social group. It also demonstrates that arms have historically as well as present, have sacred place for leading life of honor and dignity. It also demonstrates that bearing of arms is the essential medium through which the individual asserts both his social power and his participation in politics as a responsible moral being. Thus the right to life and liberty under Article 21, includes the life of honor and liberty also protected by arms, which hold sacred position in the collective consciousness of people.

Another post may also read along with this http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 13#p227013
"If my mother tongue is shaking the foundations of your State, it probably means that you built your State on my land" - Musa Anter, Kurdish writer, assassinated by the Turkish secret services in 1992

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Re: Licence application rejected seek help and Guidance :)

Post by NickSingh » Tue May 24, 2016 10:39 pm

Hello friends and mentors, I am very pleased to announce that i have finally got my Arms licence. It was a long and painful journey.But it seems all worth it now. since 3 years 3 declined application, my hard work paid of and i am proud owner of State wide Arms licence with a NPB Pistol/Revolver endorsed on it. I want to thanks all of you specially the moderators and everyone else who guided and helped me to achieve my goal. The guidance and in particularly efforts by moral support that you guys provide were applaudable. I once again really appreciate that.

P.s I will be creating a new thread for which gun to buy. Thanx in Advance

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Re: Licence application rejected seek help and Guidance :)

Post by Vakil Saab » Tue May 24, 2016 11:25 pm

Congratulations! Please follow gun safety precautions. Enjoy responsibly!
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Re: Licence application rejected seek help and Guidance :)

Post by aks1296 » Wed May 25, 2016 6:07 am

How did you manage to convience the police for license?

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Re: Licence application rejected seek help and Guidance :)

Post by NickSingh » Wed May 25, 2016 10:53 pm

Vakil Saab wrote:Congratulations! Please follow gun safety precautions. Enjoy responsibly!

Thank you sir for the kind advice, Though i have leaned a lot from this community as well as taught myself from other sources and i am open to any suggestions and precautions.

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Added in 3 minutes 19 seconds:
aks1296 wrote:How did you manage to convince the police for license?

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Hello my unknown friend,Kindly read my thread from the very begging you will come to know the whole story. in short there was a robbery attempted in the place i live so that Copy of FIR was a one of the strong suit to i had. Rest is a long story.

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Re: RE: Re: Licence application rejected seek help and Guidance :)

Post by aks1296 » Thu May 26, 2016 1:57 pm

NickSingh wrote:
Vakil Saab wrote:Congratulations! Please follow gun safety precautions. Enjoy responsibly!

Thank you sir for the kind advice, Though i have leaned a lot from this community as well as taught myself from other sources and i am open to any suggestions and precautions.

Regrads

Added in 3 minutes 19 seconds:
aks1296 wrote:How did you manage to convince the police for license?

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Hello my unknown friend,Kindly read my thread from the very begging you will come to know the whole story. in short there was a robbery attempted in the place i live so that Copy of FIR was a one of the strong suit to i had. Rest is a long story.

Regrads
I did read the whole story. I didn't just understand one thing, did you had to go to court? Or did the apelette authority granted you a Shotgun/Rifle license instead of the pistol license you requested?

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Re: Licence application rejected seek help and Guidance :)

Post by NickSingh » Thu May 26, 2016 10:59 pm

@aks1296 , No Court no appeal, ail i did was keep on reapplying my application every time it gets refused. It was like a drill for me . I had became so quick and efficient in preparing my File that once they declined my application, i was able to prepare my file in a few hours of time same day. 1st one got not Recommended from SHO,Second time i was able to convince him and it got rejected from DSP 3rd time DSP got changed and new one was a young bloke on training, he header my case carefully and recommended it straight away then it was on to the District megastar in my case Deputy Commissioner of my town.Then from there it was a waiting game for a period of almost 6 moths at DM office . I patiently waited and waited and waited,also keep on visiting the DM office every week and some time fortnightly during this period of 6 months. Finally one day received a call of hearing in the court of District magistrate. went there waited for whole day at 4-4:30 they said DM has an emergency meeting so the hearing got postponed to next week "Typical". Next week again i went and DM heard my case same old question why you want it, what kinda threat and many more, i explained every thing,DM listened it all said neither YES nor The NO, again after 15 days they sent a letter that there is going to be another hearing so there i go again this time all DM did was looked at the file,saw my face, and asked me "Hua ni Apka Abhi" and i was like "NO" and then DM said something to the clerk and asked me to leave and said will let you know. Right after a week or so i got a text message saying that My application is successful and i can collect the Copy of Licence from DM office in a week time. I jumped with joy and visited the DM office collected my License. and the clerk babu was like "acha to sir ho e gea apak hena and i was like "Hanji" and he was like "ab party to banti hai" and i was like "haanji batao App kaha doge mujhe party" and he was like here is your licence.

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Re: Licence application rejected seek help and Guidance :)

Post by aks1296 » Thu May 26, 2016 11:07 pm

@NickSingh, if you had applied for Shotgun license insted of Handgun it would have be easy no?

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Re: Licence application rejected seek help and Guidance :)

Post by NickSingh » Thu May 26, 2016 11:22 pm

No I don't think so if it matters a lot,As per my experience that once your file past SHO,from there none really bothers which type of rifle/ handgun you have applied for because SHO is the one who will ask you the most questions and prepares a hand written report on your applied bore, rifle/Handgun ,reasons, threats also more importantly, weather he approves of it or not.

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Re: Licence application rejected seek help and Guidance :)

Post by aks1296 » Fri May 27, 2016 12:58 am

@NickSingh

Could you tell me if i apply for .22lr rifle license (for target practice) how should i convience the SHO? And what kind of questions would DM ask me?

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I am 19 btw

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Re: Licence application rejected seek help and Guidance :)

Post by StormTruppen » Fri May 27, 2016 8:25 am

@AKS1296..
Here is what you need to do in order to get a .22LR License under Sports Category..

1. Get enrolled in a Rifle Shooting Club.
2. Practice good for a couple of months. Then Ask your Club President / Secretary to issue you with a Endorsement Letter that you need a personal weapon to enter Championships on the State Level.
3. Now Apply for the License with the Licensing Authority.
4. Wait & follow the Procedures Correctly to get your License at the earliest.

Note: There is no need to convince anyone when you are applying under sports category. They may ask you to show any supporting documents, there you can show your Club ID / WBRA Shooter ID / Couple of Targets you shot during your Practice in Club, etc.

Also, keep in mind. Never say you want 22 License for Target Practice. Our over-educated Babus think that to be a leniency towards Hunting Birds, etc. Always say Sports Purpose / Want to Enter State-Level Champoionships & you are unable to find someone to lend on a regular manner.

This is my personal experience, which I am sharing.

Best of Luck.
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Re: Licence application rejected seek help and Guidance :)

Post by NickSingh » Fri May 27, 2016 10:47 am

@ask1296 . I had applied for a NPB Pistol/Revolver licence under Self protection category. I think @StormTruppen has done a brilliant job explaining you which route you should be on. Considering your young age, i higly doubt that you'll be able to convince anyone to approve your file, besides the channel @StormTruppen Explained.

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