depression and difficulties.

Discussions related to firearms that do not fit in anywhere else.
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Re: depression and difficulties.

Post by Mack The Knife » Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:00 pm

Before we start - Handguns are not permitted to be owned by civilians or shooters in Britain - They are banned ! The british pistol team trains in france , belgium and switzerland
I don't have the energy to go through your post or the others at the moment but the above quoted bit caught my eye and I think this needs correcting.

Handguns aren't banned in Britain. Yes, most of them are Section 5 firearms (same category as machine guns, etc.) but they can be owned provided you show a good reason for owning one and the handgun meeting certain requirements. Incidentally, blackpowder revolvers and pistols are exempt from the 'ban'.

To be precise, they are restricted firearms, in the sense that the overall length, including forearm brace should not be less than 60 cms. Also, one does not have to be a national squad member. Being a member of a club that shoots handguns is sufficient enough reason.

I am not sure if Mick Gault & Co. still practice semi-auto disciplines in Switzerland but they have been practising Free Pistol at Bisley for over a year.

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Re: depression and difficulties.

Post by Mack The Knife » Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:18 pm

HI! I am just pointing out the similarities/dissimilarities in the process. AND yes the process for a shooter now is better in INDIA cuz the right to have the multiple weapons and ammo is a constitutional one - no whims and fancies here mate whereas in Britain ur PC can still screw yer happiness. No Gazette notification there.
Except that Plod normally doesn't, whilst our chaps do try and make it as difficult as they can for us. My experiences have bordered on good but that is probably down to membership of a rifle association, gongs and certs.

Theory and reading the NRA website is all very well but please think/research before posting because the ground reality is very different.

In case you are wondering, I have been a member of a U.K. shooting forum for seven years and that has given me a lot of exposure to their laws and licencing procedures.

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Post by kanwar76 » Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:27 pm

shutzen";p="23717 wrote:HI! all ye "enlightened ones" with occuluded vision and clear prejuduice I was simply stating what is clearly mentioned on the UK NRA site regarding FAC. As u obviously cant go through the site I am reproducing relevent parts here and also comparing the Indian counter aspect :

http://www.nra.org.uk/common/asp/genera ... p?site=NRA

Before we start - Handguns are not permitted to be owned by civilians or shooters in Britain - They are banned ! The british pistol team trains in france , belgium and switzerland

Anyone wishing to hold a Firearms Certificate (FAC) for target shooting must be a Full Member of a Home Office Approved (HOA) Club. As the NRA is a HOA Club in it's own right, members can use the NRA as their Primary club when applying for an FAC.


What do I need to do to apply successfully for a Firearms Certificate?
You will need to furnish proof that you have completed the probationary period of a Home Office Approved full bore rifle club, 2 referee forms, 4 photos and a fee.

Why must NRA act as one of my referees on renewal of my Firearms Certificate if I have nominated NRA as my “Primary” or Main Club?
On your renewal form (Firearms Form 101), you will see on the back page under Note to Part E: Referees, that if the application is for renewal, then one of the referees MUST be an official of the Home Office Approved club named on your FAC. If NRA is your primary club, then Firearms Liaison Section at NRA will complete this reference for you and send it direct to the Police. Someone who has known you personally for at least two years and is NOT a member of a shooting club should complete your other referee form. They should complete the referee form and sign one of the photographs, then your referee should send these direct to the Police Firearms Licensing Department address shown on the letter sent to you by the Police when they sent you your renewal paperwork

Why should I ensure that I always complete my Range Card when I attend NRA to use the ranges?
In order to continue to keep your Firearms Certificate, you need to show “Good Reason” for using each of your firearms listed on your FAC. Where good reason is given as Target Shooting and NRA is your Primary (Main) Club, when FAC renewal time looms, NRA must certify to the Police the number of times in the last 12 months you have used each of those firearms. The only way we can do this is by checking on a) the old Range Cards and b) on the computerised Attendance Record system in the Range Office. If you do not sign in, we have no record of your shooting attendance! To put it bluntly, it is YOUR responsibility to ensure that we have up-to-date shooting records for you. With perhaps 4,500 NRA members, it is an impossible task to track and trace each member’s records if they are not on the cards or computer. If you have not shot as a member of NRA during the last 12 months, you will be included on the “nil shooting returns list” which NRA by law must return to the Police each year.

How often do I have to use each firearm?
“Good Reason” means that you must show that you use each of your firearms at least once a year. It is recommended that you keep a full record of your shooting, getting a club official at each of your listed clubs to sign each entry to certify that usage; this helps greatly when it comes to renewal time. You may not use all your firearms at all of your listed clubs: a personal record enables you to show the Firearms Enquiry Officer when he visits you which firearms you have used, where and when. The law says that it is YOUR responsibility to keep those records. In practice, many clubs, including NRA, keep shooting records on the club premises, which may be inspected by members or club officials as required. Most Police forces consider that use of each firearm at least 3 times a year is adequate for justifying Good Reason, as detailed in “Firearms Law: Guidance to the Police”. However, a few police forces would prefer to see at least 6 times per year, although this may be questionable legally. If you have been ill or have been away on business, the Police should take this into consideration when considering “Good Reason”.

Can I bring a guest to shoot if I am an NRA member?
Unfortunately not, each club is limited to 12 guest days per year, the NRA - as the Governing Body of civilian shooting in the UK as well as being Club - uses it’s guest days for corporate events.

Can I shoot with friends who belong to another club?
Only if they are Full Members of the NRA shooting on a target booked by you as a member of the NRA. If the target is booked by an Affiliated club, only members of that club may shoot on the target. Others can only shoot if the day is designated a 'Guest Day' and previously arranged with the police at least 48 hours in advance.



I have a problem with the police regarding my firearms: can NRA help me?
As a full member of NRA, you are covered by a comprehensive Insurance Policy, including legal expenses cover. Please note that is you are a “200 Yards Only” member, then this insurance is less comprehensive. The insurance allows you to gain access to NRA’s legal team, via NRA Firearms Liaison Section, where your problem can be considered and advice given where appropriate. Many perceived problems can be sorted swiftly and easily, once full details are known to us. Where a problem occurs, contact Firearms Liaison Section initially, who will consider the situation and often can advise you and overcome the problem quickly and easily. If this does not work, we will take further advice and discuss the chances of your case succeeding if the case ends up going to court. In order for the insurance to cover the club solicitor’s fees, the case must have a good chance of winning. If the case is considered by the insurance company of not having a sufficiently good chance, we will advise the member accordingly and, if you still wish to pursue the case, we will advise how much the solicitor’s fees would be if you paid for them yourself. Always, when dealing with the police, be polite and courteous: abruptness or perceived rudeness will always give a negative result! Many problems can be solved by listening carefully and working with the Police Firearms Licensing Department, rather than against them. Often, an apparent initial misunderstanding causes problems.

Well the above was the UK aspect and below is the Indian aspect:

1. Anyone over 12 yrs can do target practice with a firearm under supervision.
2. As per the arms act anyone who is a member of a shooting club and applies for a .22 rifle for taget practice "SHALL" be provided a licence.
3. You dont need a gun safe and neither will the thulls inspect ur premises to see where u keep ur weapons.
4. You only need to go thru the thulls for your first licence. All susbequent additions are done without their comming into the pic by the DM office or the HS office .
5. If u shoot the MQS u can keep 4 weapons of the category in which u acheived this and 15K ammo. This is by notification In the ARMS ACT so it is guarenteed that you will get ur endorsements on your licence no matter what. If u r rewonwned in more than one category u can keep upto 10 weapons. There are moves afoot to increase the ammo quota to 25K for shooters who are renowned in more than one category event- shud b thru shortly
6. Once you get your endorsemsnt there is no requirement to shoot further to retain ur weapons. You can shoot again even after a gap and import again .
KANWAR u got a persecution mania chip on yer shoulder - I suggest u drop it
Just go to the NRAI office and check the records and see how the MINORITY community is importing shotguns /rifles/pistols in good numbers - obviously no one is discriminating against them - they are simply sportsmen and whatever benifits acrue to them they enjoy.

From the above extracts it is clear that I have not invented anything on my own- not added anything - simply stated what is published on the website. so u frustrated dudes grow up and get a life ;)

I can show you ten cases for each of your example who got treated otherwise... and why in the hell I have to be NRAI member of even a club member to own a shotgun, I don't know much about gun laws in UK but if a brown resident alien (In these times) can get a shotgun so easily then I don't need any more proof....

I don't have any kind of chip on my shoulder but suggest YOU should get out of you cocoon of NRAI and ISSF, there is one more thing is there called RKBA.

I fail to understand why you made that first comment when you clearly see how easy was it for shooter to get his hands on a shotgun. or you just a troublemaker

-Inder
I am the Saint the Soldier that walks in Peace. I am the Humble dust of your feet, But dont think my Spirituality makes me weak. The Heavens will roar if my Kirpan were to speak...

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Post by shutzen » Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:37 pm

I fail to understand why you made that first comment when you clearly see how easy was it for shooter to get his hands on a shotgun. or you just a troublemaker

-Inder
HI! Shotgun licence is still the easiest one even the indian dudes like to give out - they only start shirking when rifles and handguns come into the pic.

As far as the troublemaker bit : like I had told ya earlier - Grow up kid

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Post by kanwar76 » Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:45 pm

shutzen";p="23758 wrote:
I fail to understand why you made that first comment when you clearly see how easy was it for shooter to get his hands on a shotgun. or you just a troublemaker

-Inder
HI! Shotgun licence is still the easiest one even the indian dudes like to give out - they only start shirking when rifles and handguns come into the pic.

As far as the troublemaker bit : like I had told ya earlier - Grow up kid

And who was talking here about rifles and handguns.. :? So my question again Why you made that comment

And as far as me growing up.... I am already grown up too much its you who need to do some catching up

-Inder
I am the Saint the Soldier that walks in Peace. I am the Humble dust of your feet, But dont think my Spirituality makes me weak. The Heavens will roar if my Kirpan were to speak...

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Post by Risala » Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:57 pm

shutzen";p="23758 wrote:
Inder
HI! Shotgun licence is still the easiest one even the indian dudes like to give out - they only start shirking when rifles and handguns come into the pic.

As far as the troublemaker bit : like I had told ya earlier - Grow up kid
Shutzen

Enough BS we have all been to school :wink:

A lic for a fire arm is a lic period ! it could be in any category what you apply for,so pl cut the BS and just get your facts straight.

Just fyi on the civi street for CQB aint nothing more effective than a shotgun esp a PA or a semi auto.

and you do know where to validate this info dont you :wink:

As regards growing up,you got the B**** then you might just want to get rid of your veil.

Keep cribbing and yet try to use the system.

Trust me have seen plenty like you.

Best

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Post by shutzen » Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:38 am

A lic for a fire arm is a lic period ! it could be in any category what you apply for,so pl cut the BS and just get your facts straight.
HI! I have my facts straight thats what I am trying to explain to u - the babus regard the shotty as a ineffective weapon with the birdshot ammo available today ;) Now if u r being a naughty boy and pulling off the ............

J
ust fyi on the civi street for CQB aint nothing more effective than a shotgun esp a PA or a semi auto.

and you do know where to validate this info dont you :wink:
Sure I know it and it thas to have some proper fodder for that - but the babus r comfy handing out shotty's rather than rifles or pistols...
As regards growing up,you got the B**** then you might just want to get rid of your veil.
No problems just PM me and u will have all the info u need - for ur use only - not on the board ;) land up at the nationals and we can meet up or drop by anytime before ......
Keep cribbing and yet try to use the system.
Ahhh... man old Indian bimari... cribbing is my birthright and I dont try to use the system - I have Integrated myself INTO the system and learnt to make it work for me ;) drive the fear of God in the the friggin babus and get ur work done ;)
Trust me have seen plenty like you.
trust me mate u aint seen anything yet :lol:

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Re: depression and difficulties.

Post by kanwar76 » Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:15 am

Why you made that comment

-Inder
I am the Saint the Soldier that walks in Peace. I am the Humble dust of your feet, But dont think my Spirituality makes me weak. The Heavens will roar if my Kirpan were to speak...

penpusher

Re: depression and difficulties.

Post by penpusher » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:06 am

Shutzen,

A.You are a liar who is deliberately posting misleading information here.

i)There is no constitutional right to bear arms in India.It is a 'privilege' granted under a statute and can be suspended/revoked or withdrawn completely.

ii)There is no 6 month deadline to issue an arms license.

iii)Your story of taking on the Secretary Home is a blatant lie.The Home Secretary has got nothing to do with the enhancement of ammo quotas.The application for this is submitted to the G.A.[A.C.(G)] in the DM's office and the DM/ADM is the competent authority to sanction the enhanced quotas.

B.You are clearly in favor of maintaining the status quo while this site is devoted to changing the current situation as it is against those who wish to own firearms for self defense or sport.You feel that the situation is India is now very rosy for people wishing to own firearms.Rosy, perhaps for you as you have now got the right to import firearms and ammunition.However it is not so for the rest of the population.We wish to see the right that you now enjoy being extended to every person who has a license for a firearm.Therefore you are against what this site and the members here wish to achieve.We don't need you.

C.You are abusive towards other members here,though in an oblique manner.These are members who have been here before you and have contributed towards this site in terms of their time and knowledge.Which is more than you can say for your stay here.Your rants are a pain to read.

For all the reasons stated above I am banning you.Something,that I feel should have been done a long time back.

Bye bye.
penpusher

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Re: depression and difficulties.

Post by cottage cheese » Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:39 pm

penpusher";p="23780 wrote:Shutzen,

A.You are a liar who is deliberately posting misleading information here.

i)There is no constitutional right to bear arms in India.It is a 'privilege' granted under a statute and can be suspended/revoked or withdrawn completely.

ii)There is no 6 month deadline to issue an arms license.

iii)Your story of taking on the Secretary Home is a blatant lie.The Home Secretary has got nothing to do with the enhancement of ammo quotas.The application for this is submitted to the G.A.[A.C.(G)] in the DM's office and the DM/ADM is the competent authority to sanction the enhanced quotas.

B.You are clearly in favor of maintaining the status quo while this site is devoted to changing the current situation as it is against those who wish to own firearms for self defense or sport.You feel that the situation is India is now very rosy for people wishing to own firearms.Rosy, perhaps for you as you have now got the right to import firearms and ammunition.However it is not so for the rest of the population.We wish to see the right that you now enjoy being extended to every person who has a license for a firearm.Therefore you are against what this site and the members here wish to achieve.We don't need you.

C.You are abusive towards other members here,though in an oblique manner.These are members who have been here before you and have contributed towards this site in terms of their time and knowledge.Which is more than you can say for your stay here.Your rants are a pain to read.

For all the reasons stated above I am banning you.Something,that I feel should have been done a long time back.

Bye bye.
penpusher

....end of story ;)

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Re: depression and difficulties.

Post by Grumpy » Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:04 am

penpusher, I think that the reason that none of the rest of us had reacted against Shutzens increasingly outragious outpourings is that we were horribly fascinated, waiting for the next revelation. He has justified the licencing system on the basis that any problems can be ironed out by those who could afford it by paying bribes. He considers the current method of obtaining `Renowned Shot` status to be quite acceptable. We were anticipating him justifying the use of bribes to obtain `Renowned Status`......and the cronyism that means that international team selection isn`t made on ability but on who you are or who you know. Waiting for him to confirm that championships have been won not by the lowest score but by the highest bribe. All quite reasonable in Shutzens opinion apparently - he supports Indian shooting sports and gun ownership being restricted to a moneyed and powerful elite.
Being so familiar with the NRAI we were waiting for him to relate the joke that has been doing the international `rounds` for the past couple of years: That India would probably do rather well in international competition if they selected their best team. Unfortunately no one knows who the best team are - especially not the Indian selectors. They know who has the fattest wallets but no idea who shoots the lowest scores.........
We were waiting for Shutzen to justify the perception that `Renowned Shot` status is obtained and championships won with the aid of a .22 calibre ballpoint pen being used to puncture targets ....... and that there is a pricelist.
When there are so many allegations of corruption made there is a good case for suggesting that `there is no smoke without fire`. It doesn`t help when NRAI supporters like Shutzen condone bribery as legitimate and justifies the currrent status quo which favours money and power.
Now let`s wait for the howls of outraged indignation. I`m just saying what several members of this forum know but daren`t say because of being Indian and fearing reprisal.
It amazes and disgusts me that both Shutzen and Shahid promoted elitism, cronyism, the corrupt status quo and disseminated lying bullshit yet received support from certain members of this forum because those two dared to `take on` the moderators. Those members ought to be ashamed of themselves. This forum is `Indians FOR Guns` NOT `Indians for Corruption and Lies.
If you are not FOR the promotion of a fairer and more just system of Firearms licencing and and ownership then bug*er off elswhere because by attacking the moderators you are the enemies of this forum.
The moderators of this website have to put up with bullsh*t that you wouldn`t believe - much more than ever gets posted on the forums. So sometimes we aren`t perfect and sometimes we are heavy handed and sometimes we aren`t fair. SORRY.
If the members of this forum were mature and responsible enough to police this forum efficiently then we could return to the old `IFG` Yahoo Groups format in which there were no moderators. You want this forum to have no moderators ? Then grow up and attack that which needs attacking and support that which needs support. Are you up to it ?
In the meantime I`m resigning as a moderator. I`m sick of dealing with the arseholes like Satpal_S, Shahid, Danish, and Shutzen and sick of the sad arseholes who support them. None of those were in favour of Indians for Guns but were all out in favour of guns for Shahid, guns for Danish and guns for Shutzen.....
If Indians really do want to hold firearms as responsible citizens you need to grow up and start acting like responsible adults instead of promoting and supporting dissent.
I`ll leave you with one thought:
Who do you think benefits from the failure of IFG ?
Last edited by Grumpy on Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Sakobav » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:03 am

All these guys were jokers and no doubt we all including myself have tried to nudge some members in correct direction, albeit unsuccessfully.

Please reconsider your decision moderators have another role which is providing correct information and guidance. This is a much bigger loss to this forum to loose two Moderators in relative short time because of few bad apples.

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Re: depression and difficulties.

Post by Pran » Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:19 am

>....with the aid of a .22 calibre ballpoint pen being used to puncture targets

Good one :lol:

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Re: depression and difficulties.

Post by Mack The Knife » Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:31 am

In the meantime I`m resigning as a moderator. I`m sick of dealing with the arseholes like Satpal_S, Shahid, Danish, and Shutzen and sick of the sad arseholes who support them.
Illegitimi non carborundum, Grumpy.

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Re: depression and difficulties.

Post by Grumpy » Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:47 pm

Hardly Mack The Knife. I`ve decided that I`d rather be a rank and file member with the option to call the ar*eholes `ar*eholes` without all this stupid yellow card business and - supposedly - being even-handed and polite to the miscreants. Something, frankly, that also isn`t working.
It IS about time that this forum and it`s members grew up and accepted responsibility for our own actions. If that means dispensing with moderators then so be it - but that means that the members are going to have to stand up and fight the lying sh1tes like Shutzen rather than ignoring or supporting them.
It`s about time that a lot more members showed that they actually are `Indians for Guns` rather than `wimps for the status quo` or `Shahid's ar*e lickers`.
Last edited by Grumpy on Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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