Basis of ban on the import of firearms in India in 1986

[ankur_ank007]

By the logic given here, pretty much every commodity and product should be freely importable - only then can you say that the consumer has free choice! However, this means accepting that the government has no authority to regulate any imports or for that matter any commerce, other than to ensure that it is free & fair... I very much doubt any such challenge to the ban on arms & ammunition imports will fly in a court of law.

Allow me to give this discussion a different twist.

While arms license holders see the ban on imports as the only thing holding them back from owning their dream guns, they tend to forget that their community is a minuscule minority in India and thus their desires are of little interest to those in power.

Those who have been denied an arms license (usually for no justifiable reasons) are many many times their number. Those who never even applied for an arms license, daunted by the harassment of the process and/ or the astronomical prices (of arms & ammunition) prevailing in India would be an even greater number.

So while the total number of people who may desire to own a legal firearm in India is large, that number is NOT represented by the total number of arms licenses in circulation.

You want better products? You want imports to be opened?

Then FIRST you need to address the above problem. Once there are 1 million additional arms licensees out there with nothing worthwhile to buy, the clamour for change will be louder... as the number goes up to 10 million it will be absolutely deafening!!

To put the above figures in perspective some years back there were over 100,000 arms license applications PENDING in just one city (Lucknow). Clear the backlog of just 10-15 cities and you have over a million new arms licensees, clear the all India backlog and the above figure of 10 million will turn out to be a conservative one.

The way I see it, that's the only way things will change for the better....

Cheers!
Abhijeet

I agree with you sir. 1st we will have to prove that IOF alone is not sufficient to fulfil the needs against each and every requirement. Once the roar is as loud as required, the change is bound to happen.

Regards

[renjith747]

By the logic given here, pretty much every commodity and product should be freely importable - only then can you say that the consumer has free choice! However, this means accepting that the government has no authority to regulate any imports or for that matter any commerce, other than to ensure that it is free & fair... I very much doubt any such challenge to the ban on arms & ammunition imports will fly in a court of law.

Allow me to give this discussion a different twist.

While arms license holders see the ban on imports as the only thing holding them back from owning their dream guns, they tend to forget that their community is a minuscule minority in India and thus their desires are of little interest to those in power.

Those who have been denied an arms license (usually for no justifiable reasons) are many many times their number. Those who never even applied for an arms license, daunted by the harassment of the process and/ or the astronomical prices (of arms & ammunition) prevailing in India would be an even greater number.

So while the total number of people who may desire to own a legal firearm in India is large, that number is NOT represented by the total number of arms licenses in circulation.

You want better products? You want imports to be opened?

Then FIRST you need to address the above problem. Once there are 1 million additional arms licensees out there with nothing worthwhile to buy, the clamour for change will be louder... as the number goes up to 10 million it will be absolutely deafening!!

To put the above figures in perspective some years back there were over 100,000 arms license applications PENDING in just one city (Lucknow). Clear the backlog of just 10-15 cities and you have over a million new arms licensees, clear the all India backlog and the above figure of 10 million will turn out to be a conservative one.

The way I see it, that's the only way things will change for the better....

Cheers!
Abhijeet

Abhijeet, shall we think little different here, I firmly believe in RKBA and every citizen of India should have the right to protect their lives and family.Its a good idea to carry a revolver(in terms of reliability) in bags for ladies to protect themselves from attackers if they travel alone or come late from work place.But i am afraid to say that the sum of money they have to spend for IOF .32cal revolver varies between 80-87,000 INR ie 1417.862 US Dollar for the period.At the same time in international market one can buy a Smith & Wesson Model 637 for 469USD (28,787INR) in .38 S&W Special Cal.

87,000 Rs is a good sum for ordinary people, current situation in India is very hard to get a license and even if a license is issued price for the weapon is too high to afford for common man.Same is in the case of ammunition ,a single .22lr cart costs 23-25rs and 12bore for nos it varies between 70-90rs a pop, government hiked the prices to a level to curtail the license so that ordinary citizen will not come forward to apply for license by seeing the red tapism and high cost of arms and ammunition.

my point is that RKBA can be enjoyed fully, only if the amendments in arms act and re-open of imports of arms and ammunition takes place in the same time.By this ordinary people can buy arms and ammunition without burning hole in their pocket.

Regards
Renjith

[dr.jayakumar]

we all are day dreaming nothing can happen until the government decides otherwise.no court appeal will help.
regards
dr.jk

[ankur_ank007]

we all are day dreaming nothing can happen until the government decides otherwise.no court appeal will help.
regards
dr.jk

Dear Sir,

Some one has to bear the torch. Every now and then a trigger has to be pulled. We have achieved independence from a foreign government almost 70 years ago, however this is our our democratic government, this government is from us, by us, for u, if we can do that, occurs we can do this too.

Regards,

[dr.jayakumar]

we all are day dreaming nothing can happen until the government decides otherwise.no court appeal will help.
regards
dr.jk

Dear Sir,

Some one has to bear the torch. Every now and then a trigger has to be pulled. We have achieved independence from a foreign government almost 70 years ago, however this is our our democratic government, this government is from us, by us, for u, if we can do that, occurs we can do this too.

Regards,

I tried everything within my limit to file a writ petition,there seems no provision for appeal.it has to be the government.
regards
dr.jk

[Hammerhead]

Rulers , peasants , don't use logic !!!

[ankur_ank007]

You want better products? You want imports to be opened?

Then FIRST you need to address the above problem. Once there are 1 million additional arms licensees out there with nothing worthwhile to buy, the clamour for change will be louder... as the number goes up to 10 million it will be absolutely deafening!!

To put the above figures in perspective some years back there were over 100,000 arms license applications PENDING in just one city (Lucknow). Clear the backlog of just 10-15 cities and you have over a million new arms licensees, clear the all India backlog and the above figure of 10 million will turn out to be a conservative one.

The way I see it, that's the only way things will change for the better....

Cheers!
Abhijeet

I'm in total agreement with the points you raised, and I'm definitely sure NAGRI would have considered all these aspects in their fight to RKBA.

I have been reading a lot on this forum about the convoluted system used by govt to curtail my rights. And though I desperately want to own arms sometime in my life, I do not want to jeopardise the cause of NAGRI in any way.

Since the likes of Ankur and others are eager to take up the cause, it would really help if the developments on this front are known to all periodically so our fight is collective and in the right direction instead of sporadic outbursts which will only dampen the spirit of individuals in case of a setback.

Cheers..!
RK

Hi Rahul ji,

Agreed.....


Regards,

[ankur_ank007]

Before 1986 import of arms and ammunition was not restricted. Since then the statistics of violent crime has been increased by more than 400% (as per National Crime Record Bureau data), but our power blinded bureaucrats and idiot ministers can not see this..... Let the people die, they are getting Z securities.... They don't care.

Can some one suggest me if the basis of this ban be challenged? I am not a legal expert, however just feel that on personal liberty there should be no restrictions. Firearms and guns are not just for recreation, they are primarily a tool for self defence and to fight against tyranny. If I feel that a certain firearm (say IOF Ashani) is not worth relying upon for the safety of my life and liberty or safety of my family and property, why am I bound to rely upon it?

[Anand]

Terrorism and Crime are usually blamed for the ban on import of arms in 1984/85/86, IMHO it was the finance department that placed the restriction to prevent outflow of money to countries abroad.
What most people don't realize is that the Arms Act 1959 has many statements in it, that allow other Acts in Law to curtail people's ability to procure, own, keep, use, transport or inherit arms. For example I have read in several places in the Act where the Law will state a restriction with some limitations, but will end the statement with the words " or by any other law in existence at that time". So even if the Arms Act is amended, these "allowances" in it will allow other laws to regulate arms by proxy.
Regards,
Anand

[mundaire]

AFAIK you cannot challenge the executive's power to regulate imports/ trade, which is the basis of the ban (EXIM policy).

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[ankur_ank007]

AFAIK you cannot challenge the executive's power to regulate imports/ trade, which is the basis of the ban (EXIM policy).

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

Got it...

[shifuhpanda]

Nothing is bigger than the fear of separation from most indigenous groups of separatists for sovereignty cause this rigid arms act.
But 12 bore can't stand against ak47.No threat.So license should be available for 12bore even to those handicap for their own safety. I guess..

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[goodboy_mentor]

Can someone advise me ,in legal light, why was the import of firearms banned in 1986? Does this not interfere with our right to possess a quality product on the best available price? Someone advised me that this ban was on the recomendation of Ministry of Finance! Is it true? Also, does this ban does not mock the "Fair Competition Act" by implementing this ban on all the other overseas "Quality Arms Manufacturers"?

AFAIK you cannot challenge the executive's power to regulate imports/ trade, which is the basis of the ban (EXIM policy).

Imports have not been legally banned. They have been put in restricted list of Export Import Policy(Exim Policy) which is created by Executive branch of government from delegation of legislative powers done by Parliament under Section 5 of the Foreign Trade (Development & Regulation) Act,1992. It means for imports of firearms you need import license from licensing authority of DGFT. For common man it is as good as banned. Exim Policy is usually created for five years and modified and updated at regular intervals, probably after budget every year.

This "ban" is against at least the following -

1) Section 10(1)a of Arms Act 1959 which is flowing directly from personal liberty clause of Article 21 of the Constitution.

2) going beyond the mandate of Article 307 under Part XIII of Constitution for regulating “trade, commerce and intercourse” for which the licensing authority of DGFT works. Import of items or arms/ firearms for personal or private use is not “trade, commerce and intercourse”. Thus indirectly violating freedoms and liberties under Part III especially the liberty under Article 21 for which Section 10(1)a of Arms Act 1959 has been specially and specifically enacted.

3) Section 11(2)(u) of The Customs Act, 1962 also says about the prevention of the contravention of any law for the time being in force. Section 10(1)a of Arms Act 1959 and Article 21 of the Constitution is being contravened.

4) The preamble of of the Foreign Trade (Development and Regulation) Act, 1992 says:

"An Act to provide for the development and regulation of foreign trade by facilitating imports into, and augmenting exports from India and for matters connected therewith or Incidental thereto."

Is placing of restriction on imports of arms and ammunition in restricted list, facilitating imports into or augmenting exports from India? The answer is no. Actually it is going against the very purpose of Foreign Trade (Development and Regulation) Act, 1992 itself.

5) Can DGFT formulate provisions of policy or notifications that are violation of any Articles of Part III of the Constitution or principles of natural justice? No it cannot. By restricting imports for all and exempting some it is violating equality before law. The intelligible differentia is not ineligible enough to differentiate between transfer of residency individuals, Indian Foreign Service officials, shooters, resident Indians and others under law since all can equally posses arms/ammunition by following the same due process of law under Arms Act 1959.

6) by going against the spirit and purpose of Competition Act, it is creating and facilitating creation of monopolistic conditions. IOF is exploiting the conditions thus created fully and abusing its monopolistic position in clear violation of Competition Act.

What is the legal purpose of placing arms and ammunition into restricted list of EXIM Policy? Let DGFT/ Finance Ministry give an answer to this question via RTI by providing certified copies of all the documents on basis of which firearms were placed in restricted list of EXIM Polcy for the first time.

Nothing is bigger than the fear of separation from most indigenous groups of separatists for sovereignty cause this rigid arms act.

This is one of the most baseless and specious arguments one comes across periodically. Arms Act 1959 is applicable to all the citizens. Have all the citizens of India become political "separatists"? And those who have really become political "separatists" they do not apply for arms licenses, they have their own ways and means to get the latest and the best arms they need for their purpose. Should the law abiding citizens be made answerable and suffer for the deeds and views of few individuals?

[Motorpsycho]

Another way around - Instead of IOF manufacturing handguns what is that is stopping them from importing quality handguns/rifles and selling them here at a premium.
I know what I stated is wishful thinking

[ankur_ank007]

Another way around - Instead of IOF manufacturing handguns what is that is stopping them from importing quality handguns/rifles and selling them here at a premium.
I know what I stated is wishful thinking

Agreed Sir.

Pakistan Ordnance Factory Board is doing the same. I read sometime ago that they have outsourced the manufacturing of Civilian Handguns to Turkey. They have transitioned to Polymer Framed weapons from IOF type cheap and lower quality weapons.

Regards

Added in 14 minutes 17 seconds:

You want better products? You want imports to be opened?

Then FIRST you need to address the above problem. Once there are 1 million additional arms licensees out there with nothing worthwhile to buy, the clamour for change will be louder... as the number goes up to 10 million it will be absolutely deafening!!

To put the above figures in perspective some years back there were over 100,000 arms license applications PENDING in just one city (Lucknow). Clear the backlog of just 10-15 cities and you have over a million new arms licensees, clear the all India backlog and the above figure of 10 million will turn out to be a conservative one.

The way I see it, that's the only way things will change for the better....

Cheers!
Abhijeet

I'm in total agreement with the points you raised, and I'm definitely sure NAGRI would have considered all these aspects in their fight to RKBA.

I have been reading a lot on this forum about the convoluted system used by govt to curtail my rights. And though I desperately want to own arms sometime in my life, I do not want to jeopardise the cause of NAGRI in any way.

Since the likes of Ankur and others are eager to take up the cause, it would really help if the developments on this front are known to all periodically so our fight is collective and in the right direction instead of sporadic outbursts which will only dampen the spirit of individuals in case of a setback.

Cheers..!
RK

Hello Sir,

Filed an RTI with the following questions today asking for the basis on which a firearm for personal use can be put in restricted list of EXIM Policy. Hope to get reply within prescribed time limit.

All members of the forum are requested to suggest any additions/rectifications which may be done to the RTI application.

Regards
Ankur