20 joules the limit for air guns....??

[mercury]

does this article settle the issue on the permissible limit for airguns in India ??

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 130786.cms

here is the relevant extract ;

" Interestingly, the home minister has shot down a demand by women and child development minister Maneka Gandhi to bring airguns under the licensing regime. As per the draft rules, acquisition of airguns with muzzle energy under20 joules or 15 feet or 0.177 mm will not require an arms licence."

the typo could mean ".....20 joules or 15ft lbs...or 0.177..."

[aadhaulya]

Please go through the following topic
https://www.indiansforguns.com/viewtopi ... =1&t=23774

Atul

[jatindra Singh Deo]

I think the reporter has mixed up three different things I. e the license for air rifles , the draft arms rule for power limit of air rifle and calibre of air rifles .

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk

[GNV]

Just shows how much some of today's reporters know about what they are writing. In my state reporters in news papers and even police officers call accidental firing of firearms as MISFIRE.

Just this morning I read about an incident of such MISFIRE. Some 24 Police officers from the states of A.P and Telangana were attending the selections for UN peace Force 2015-17 in Delhi. They were staying in their state Bhavans. One DSP from Telangana State was cleaning his 9 mm pistol and it went off. The bullet had gone through the ankle of an SI sitting in front of him. Such incidents of MISFIRE is pretty common.

[mundaire]

What is meant is that .177 cal airguns will be completely exempt from all provisions of Arms Act/ Rules. For airguns in all other calibres, if they are under 20 Joules/ 15 ft.lbs, they will similarly be exempt. If they exceed the given power limit, they will be treated the same as firearms - requiring an arms license and be subject to the limit of 3 firearms (max).

Regards,

[GNV]

15 ft.lbs is an improvement over the Dealwood Test for air gun owners. But for fire arms owners this clause is bad.

[jatindra Singh Deo]

15 ft.lbs is an improvement over the Dealwood Test for air gun owners. But for fire arms owners this clause is bad.

Yes it is definitely an improvement and looks like a sufficient one in absence of hunting permits or ban on hunting .

Sent from my XT1033 using Tapatalk

[mundaire]

It is not that you need to worry about whether or not 15 ft.lbs/ 20 Joules is a fair limit... It is how this will translate into "enforcement on the ground", that is worrisome! Allow me to explain:-

Thus far, everyone and their pet hamster know that airguns DO NOT require a license in India = no one harasses airgun owners/ users.

Once the 15 ft.lbs/ 20 Joule limit is imposed, it will mean that SOME airguns do not require a license BUT SOME DO.

This means that anyone in possession of an airgun can and OFTEN WILL be CHALLENGED to show that his/ her airgun DOES NOT require a license.

For owners of .177 cal/ 4.5 mm airguns, this will be easy enough. They will just need to show the calibre of the airgun in question and go about their life.

For ANYONE who owns/ possesses ANY airgun/ air-pistol/ air-rifle which is of ANY CALIBRE OTHER THAN .177/ 4.5mm - THEY WILL NEED TO PROVE that it does not produce energy in EXCESS of 20 Joules/ 15 ft.lbs.

They will almost certainly have to face harassment EVEN IF their airgun produces WELL BELOW the prescribed limit, why?

BECAUSE:-
a) The onus will be on them to prove that it complies
b) This will include FIRST understanding the energy limit/ how to measure it/ how to educate the ENFORCEMENT personnel about the science behind this, the accuracy of the measurement being shown to them, etc.
c) Best case scenario - EVERYONE who owns an airgun in any calibre other than .177, will need to purchase expensive scientific instruments to measure Muzzle velocity (chronograph & scientific grade weighing machine).
d) Worst case scenario, any enforcement personnel can demand that the owner get his airgun tested at the forensic labs and till such time as the test result is awaited, he can be jailed for possessing an illegal firearm.

DON'T FORGET - any airgun which IS NOT .177 cal will now have to be PROVEN to produce less than the stated energy level, ELSE it will be treated THE SAME as a firearm and penalties for possession WITHOUT a license will be SAME AS FOR AN ILLEGAL FIREARM.

It is not only airgun owners or firearm owners who should be worried - EVERYONE should be worried.

Added in 8 minutes 29 seconds:
Since the vast majority of airguns in India are in .22 calibre, this is especially bad news - as most airgun owners will be affected.

A much simpler and better way could have been to raise the calibre limit to .25 or even to .22, as that would have exempted most airguns and made implementation far simpler/ free of potential harassment.

Rationally looking at the Indian situation - it will be far easier to implement a cap on the calibre of airguns than an energy limit.

In Austria a similar model is followed where airguns up to .25 cal DO NOT require a license, but ones with calibres exceeding .25 cal are treated as firearms. Brazil also uses this type of model, but they place the limit at .22 cal/ 5.6 mm.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[jatindra Singh Deo]

Yes Abhijeet I think you are right ,going by the enormous problems I am facing getting a arms license even in the sports category ,this is may cause trouble enjoying our beloved sport even with air rifles ! This is unacceptable if true . I find a lot of ambiguous interpretation when I read the different provisions of the draft rules from different sources and I am sure Babus will be salivating at such ambiguity as thats what allows them the "discretion" ,which is at the root of corruption in babudom .I have gone through some parts of the draft arms rules in the other thread which was a enormous document and even sent email as done by other more experienced members .But I must say I am still unclear/ambiguous on the relevant sections which is what worries me !

[s_sharma]

I have some serious doubts regarding 20 joules and firearm replica provisions in draft rules. It prescribe arm license for replica of firearms but some airguns are replicas of big rifles or look like them. This provision can be misused by authorities as they are more apt in creating trouble than reading true spirit behind laws or rules.Secondly who knows meaning of term joules in police. They know only danda and money power.

[ckkalyan]

Well explained mundaire, this is definitely a dangerous route and may lead to serious restrictions on air guns in the future.

For example, before I moved to Canada I had to dispose off my collection of Air Rifles and Pistols because they exceeded a certain FPS and they 'looked' like a genuine firearm - replica.

SUPREME COURT OF CANADA RULES THAT AIR GUNS ARE "FIREARMS"
Date: Thursday, November 13, 2014
CANADA’S NATIONAL FIREARMS ASSOCIATION MEDIA RELEASE
SUPREME COURT OF CANADA RULES THAT AIR GUNS ARE "FIREARMS"

On Wednesday, November 5, the Supreme Court of Canada issued its ruling R. v. Dunn, finding that most air guns are considered “firearms” for all purposes in the Criminal Code except for licensing and registration.

The Court affirmed the previous decision of the Ontario Court of Appeal, which itself had overruled a decade of its own jurisprudence in finding that air guns are “firearms”. Prior to this case, the courts had held that air guns are not treated as “firearms” unless they are used for some offensive or unlawful purpose.

This decision applies to all air guns that are capable of causing serious bodily injury or death. Most courts have found that any air gun with a velocity of more than 214 feet-per-second meets this threshold. The vast majority of air guns sold across the country are capable of such a velocity.

This decision will have numerous significant impacts on those who buy and use air guns lawfully in Canada.

First of all, the Criminal Code provisions regarding careless storage, use and transportation of firearms now apply to air guns. Therefore, it is an offence to store or transport an air gun in a “careless” manner. However, because the ordinary firearms Storage Regulations do not apply to air guns, air gun owners are left with absolutely no guidance as to what precisely constitutes careless storage of an air gun.

It will be left up to police, prosecutors and courts to determine what charges will be laid, which will be prosecuted and ultimately who will be found guilty of this nebulous and ambiguous offence.

Moreover, as air gun owners do not require a license or a firearms safety course to possess these items, law-abiding Canadians will not be put on notice of the new legal requirements for air gun use, storage, transportation, etc.

Secondly, the offence of “carrying a concealed weapon” now applies to air guns, regardless of whether or not the air gun owner acts in an otherwise lawful manner. Placing an air gun in a backpack, a pocket or other concealed place will now be a criminal offence.

As the Supreme Court has ruled on this issue, the only route forward is through legislative amendment. Canada’s National Firearms Association has been extremely active on this front and will continue to pressure the government and provide all assistance in order to see that this decision be responded to by Parliament.

Canada’s National Firearms Association is this country’s largest and most effective advocacy organization representing the interests of firearms owners and users.

From NFA Canada

[brihacharan]

This may sound as a "Dumb" question...but nevertheless an answer / opinion would be welcome!

Do the authorities who draft & impose the power limitations on Air Arms ever consult the experts to decide the limitations or are they being presumptuous in arriving at them?

Secondly if (let's say) the authorities want to check the power limitations, would they be equipped with 'Chronographs' (properly calibrated) to evaluate the same?

Lastly do they check with other countries about such measures taken by them & decide accordingly?
Briha

[aadhaulya]

Secondly if (let's say) the authorities want to check the power limitations, would they be equipped with 'Chronographs' (properly calibrated) to evaluate the same?
Briha

Briha ji, The above point has been addressed by mundaire. The onus of proving the power limitation lies with the owner, who will have to send the gun for forensic examination. Till then it would be treated as an unlicensed weapon as per the law.

Atul

[brihacharan]

Secondly if (let's say) the authorities want to check the power limitations, would they be equipped with 'Chronographs' (properly calibrated) to evaluate the same?
Briha

Briha ji, The above point has been addressed by mundaire. The onus of proving the power limitation lies with the owner, who will have to send the gun for forensic examination. Till then it would be treated as an unlicensed weapon as per the law.
Atul

What guarantee is there that the results / findings by the "Qualified" forensic experts are true / correct?????
With what kind of pellets would the 'forensic' experts use to check the power / energy levels?
What standards would they use to periodically calibrate the chronograph?
What about the quality & veracity of the chronograph used for testing?
What about the competence of the tester?
How many shots would be fired to take an average to establish the power?
As you know an AR has multiple / variable performance quotient - each one behaves differently with the same or different pellets ...this is a proven fact even by world experts!!!!!!
This entire issue "Yucks"!!!!!
Briha

[essdee1972]

Brihaji, to answer those questions honestly will guarantee a spell as a guest of the sarkaar! The fact that you ask them is in itself a violation of the Sedition Act.

Now the question to be asked is, can we somehow get the same VIP treatment as a certain elderly actor? After all, an IHP 0.22 isn't a Type 56 assault rifle!

Now what to do with the airguns I have? I am thinking of gifting them to people I don't like much, and then dialing 100.