AR-15; the progeny of genius.

[TC]

XL... the images of Minnesota winter is scary for me Have been reading reports of cold wave across the US. Cant imagine what I would have done because I shiver even in the foothills of Darjeeling during winter.

BTW.... I want a BATF approved AR pistol .... bored with Air Pistols



TC

[kshitij]

Wow! Those images look like they were taken from the movie Day After Tomorrow!

[timmy]

XL, that's the toy! I figured that the plastic receiver would make it a better pistol regarding weight. Putting a scope on it for my old eyes would work well, and using hand loads with a faster burning powder would make it a little less obnoxious from the noise perspective.

It's cute, too, but the prices have sure gone up!

A note to TC & kshitij:

Gents, don't be fooled by descriptions of this sort of weather. I have often engaged in my own tall tales, which were basically true...

The thing is, people have orientations for weather. My Wife and I lived in Texas for 16 years and NEVER got used to the heat and humidity. I can deal with heat, but can't stand humidity! So I won't tell you that you can get used to the cold -- maybe you can't. But the kind of cold weather XL shows can be wonderful, especially if you don't have to drive and you have stocked your house with food. The violence of the weather is fascinating. We lived in a horribly ugly town in the Montana mountains, but after a good snow, it truly was beautiful. It would dip to the -45º C range every winter, and it wasn't so bad. You just had to make sure your skin was covered and that you had a scarf over your mouth. The cold, dry air would burn to breath it and frostbite was a problem -- you can't feel when it is setting in.

I look very much forward to retiring in the New Mexico mountains and having lots of snow and cold weather! I have enjoyed lots of cold weather. It may seem like something to fear, but you might like it! Think of our members in Canada, like Baljit, CK, and Herb, and XL in Minnesota -- they do alright!

[xl_target]

When I first decided that I was coming to Minnesota, a lot of people warned me that it gets very cold in Minnesota.
I wasn't worried, as when I was seventeen I had been on a mountaineering expedition up in the Himalayas. We had to dig trenches in the snow, throw in a groundsheet and drop the sleeping bag in there. Basically it got you out of the wind and you could sleep just fine. I thought I knew what cold was.

I got here in the fall of 1981 and that winter was especially brutal. I had just spent a year in Africa and was in no way prepared for what I was to encounter. I could not get warm no matter what I did. I used to run back home between classes and take a hot shower. I was totally clueless as to what real cold was. The problem with Southern Minnesota is that it is basically prairie and there are maybe a few fence posts to break the winds as they come howling in from the wastelands of the Dakotas. You can dress warm but once the wind starts, it will cut through the your outer wear like it isn't even there. You can have a snowstorm but the snow won't land for a week . If it wasn't for the wind, it would be more enjoyable. You can never totally get used to December, January and February in Minnesota but you can tolerate it. Of course, there are the winter sports enthusiasts, who delight in skiing, sledding, snowboarding and snowmobiling. Some of the modern snowmobiles are capable of doing 120 mph with ease. Snomobilers dress up like spacemen, complete with insulated helmets.

Snow on the roads, if not cleared right away, will get packed down and turn into ice. Driving on that is like driving on a skating rink. You also get ice from the water vapor in automobile exhaust. It freezes and coats the roads forming a thin layer of ice. You won't know that it is there till you touch the brakes or try a lane change. Then you have the gusting winds that push your vehicle around. After a while you learn how to drive for the conditions here. You have no choice as you have to go to work every day. I've had my share of winter driving mishaps and for the most part, I know what I am doing now. Steering and brake inputs have to be very gradual and speeds have to be kept down relative to the road conditions. Good tires are extremely important and you have to keep large distances between you and them when following other vehicles. Our highway crews are pretty good and will keep roads largely snow and ice free. You just have to use common sense for the most part.

[timmy]

The problem with Southern Minnesota is that it is basically prairie and there are maybe a few fence posts to break the winds as they come howling in from the wastelands of the Dakotas.

We always said that in Eastern Montana, the only thing between Montana and the North Pole was a barbed wire fence in Canada.

The Dakotas: Minot, North Dakota is where it gets REALLY cold!

You can dress warm but once the wind starts, it will cut through the your outer wear like it isn't even there.

There are all kinds of miracle synthetic materials and insulations. They are good, but they don't breath like natural stuff does and they make a great racket when moving through the woods. I've worn my Filson coat in Ottawa Canada at Christmas time, and for Chicago or Minnesota, where it's windy, I want a good quality leather coat with insulation. The one I have now has a zip-in knit collar that will seal my neck and the buttoned opening quite well -- it's pretty good. I find that synthetics that will block the wind won't let the body breath, and it's too easy to work up a sweat in them. Once you sweat, you are wet and all is lost as far as keeping warm.

Of course, there are the winter sports enthusiasts, who delight in skiing, sledding, snowboarding and snowmobiling. Some of the modern snowmobiles are capable of doing 120 mph with ease. Snomobilers dress up like spacemen, complete with insulated helmets.

One winter, my Brother drove me out on Lake Minnetonka. Those crazy Scandahoovians were out on the ice as if it was a park in summer. They played volleyball, sat on sofas and watched big screen TVs powered by generators, ran 4-wheelers all over and carried on having all sorts of fun. I couldn't get over it!

Snow on the roads, if not cleared right away, will get packed down and turn into ice. Driving on that is like driving on a skating rink. You also get ice from the water vapor in automobile exhaust. It freezes and coats the roads forming a thin layer of ice. You won't know that it is there till you touch the brakes or try a lane change.

Here, Montana was different. The ice did not melt at all during the day, and the sand poured out on the roads soon became like pavement. Car exhaust evaporated immediately in the dry cold air. The roads were generally pretty good, unless it was fall or spring, when they would thaw and refreeze at night.

Then you have the gusting winds that push your vehicle around.

Eastern New Mexico, east of Albuquerque: I once drove from Edgewood to Moriarty in my pickup. It was, as they say, slicker than snot and the wind was really gusting, as it always did and does there. The wind gusted so strong that it blew my pickup about a foot over the road -- my rear tires were chained up! That is bodacious wind!

After a while you learn how to drive for the conditions here. You have no choice as you have to go to work every day. I've had my share of winter driving mishaps and for the most part, I know what I am doing now. Steering and brake inputs have to be very gradual and speeds have to be kept down relative to the road conditions. Good tires are extremely important and you have to keep large distances between you and them when following other vehicles.

I find that the biggest threat is people who don't know how to drive. Exactly as XL says, everything must be planned ahead of time, and light touches on the throttle, brakes, and steering are a must. The problem comes in when some fool thinks he can pull out in front of you because you have left a larger than normal gap. Then there are the people who won't or can't by good tires and drive around with baldies. They are huge hazards to deal with.

My idea for training would be to put 10 cars on a 1/4 mile oval racetrack that is totally ice. Have them drive around the racetrack together at the same speed for a few laps. Then, disconnect the brakes on all of their cars and do it again. Finally, have five of them drive clockwise and the other five drive around counter-clockwise, again with no brakes.

I trained myself by going wild on the school parking lot during the winters. Then, I could see what whipping the wheel or slamming on the brakes would do, and how a vehicle would slide. Why driver's training never does this, I do not know. This kind of fooling around is invaluable.

You just have to use common sense for the most part.

Exactly so! The only problem, though, is that common sense isn't always so common!

[TC]

Timmy,
You are right on orientation. I was born in Bengal in June, at the height of summer and humidity. That's the first air I inhaled and that's I can live with in comfort.
Felt at home in Egypt for almost a full summer month but had to run aware from Darjeeling in three days in December 2012 as temperature was dropping to minus 3/4

XL.... you are scaring me even more

TC

[xl_target]

TC,
You will feel right at home during August.
Minnesota is pretty near tropical at that time.

[TC]

TC,
You will feel right at home during August.
Minnesota is pretty near tropical at that time.

XL.... August is my most favourite month from today

TC

[xl_target]

The AR market is currently in a huge melt-down.
Here's some drool material; ten pages of rock bottom prices for Black Friday (Nov 28th).
http://www.slickguns.com/ar-deals

[TC]

XL... its so heart breaking for us here. I subscribe to newsletters of several companies and the Black Friday mails are killing me

TC

[xl_target]

Technically, this should have been in the pistol section but it dovetails nicely with what was previously discussed about AR pistol (in this thread).

[quote=""timmy"]I can see how this would work, although it's surprising that so little volume under so much pressure would make so great a difference. I confess, one of these does look inviting. Thanks for your patience and explaining!

Dammit Timmy,
I read your statement and thought; "hmmm, why not".
SInce you asked that question about the pigtailed gas tube, I've spent a lot of time on research and have decided that I want an AR15 pistol.

[/quote]
Since Tim's enabling attitude got me thinking about an AR pistol, I was not able to let the thought go.
I finally went out and bought one. It wasn't easy since I was looking for an extremely lightweight version.
After a lot of research, I settled on on particular model. It is an Extar EXP.
This company clains that this is the lightest AR pistol in the world. It is not a true AR-15 but it does follow the design.

Here she is:


It uses the AR-15 gas impingement and the AR15 bolt but the bolt carrier is a modified AR15 bolt carrier.
The grip and the fire control parts in the lower receiver are standard AR-15 parts.
She does indeed weigh 2.98 lbs (48 oz.) unloaded and 4.06 lbs loaded with a 30 round AR15 magazine. Compare that to an empty Colt 1911 pistol at 37 oz.
The fact that it uses standard AR-15 magazines is a huge blessing.

The short barrel (8.25"/9.25" with the compensator) means that the bullet exits before all the powder has burned up. So there is a huge fireball and it is LOUD!
Even after watching a bunch of Youtube videos, I was not convinced of the lack of recoil, till I actually shot it.
The compensator is very efficient and there is no recoil which is very surprising considering one is firing a rifle cartridge in a very light pistol.
I will say one thing though, this thing is a lot of fun at the range. Its middle name is FUN.

This is what some YouTubers have to say about it:


So far, I have not had any reliability issues either, when shooting the pistol.
Granted, I have only put a few hundred rounds through it but I have used the cheapest Russian steel cased junk ammo, the underpowerd Wolf ammo, my handloads, etc and had no failures to feed fire or eject.


Whitey's laugh when he shoots the pistol at the beginning of the video is how most people react when first touching off a shot.
He is incorrect about the breakdown as you do nothave to do anything special to get the bolt out, as I will show you when I do the field strip portion of my review.

[kshitij]

Congratulations xl_target!!! Waiting for a detailed hands on review with lotsa pics

[timmy]

XL, that thing looks great! I can well imagine that it is so much fun! It must generate lots of interest on the range, ja sure!

It's interesting, that it has low recoil. Will you put a pistol scope on it?

What I can't figure is, what did they do with the recoil spring and tube? That Carbon 16 that I always liked still had the tube extendong backwards. This sure beats a krinkov all to heck! Do let us know about how it shoots on furthered adventures. Maybe you can be like Marty Robbins and take an outlaw coyote with the "big iron on your hip!" That would be a challenge!

[xl_target]

Before I address more about this pistol, I would like to make a few comments. This will be prefaced with an extract from Eugene Stoner's 1956 patent.

The most widely used method of operation of automatic rifles today is the conventional gas cylinder, piston and actuating rod assembly; the only other system now in production use being the recoil actuating system. The blow-back or inertia block system is usually reserved for weapons using lower powered ammunition, such as pistol and .22 caliber weapons.

It is a principal object of this invention to utilize the basic parts of an automatic rifle mechanism such as the bolt and bolt carrier to perform a double function. This double function consists of the bolts primary function to lock the breach against the pressure of firing, and secondarily, to act as a stationary piston to actuate the automatic rifle mechanism. The primary function of the bolt carrier is to lock and unlock the bolt by rotating it and to carry it back and forth in the receiver. The secondary function of the bolt carrier is to act as a movable cylinder to actuate the automatic rifle mechanism. By having the bolt carrier act as a movable cylinder and the bolt act as a stationary piston, the need for a conventional gas cylinder, piston and actuating rod assembly is eliminated.

It is an object of this invention to provide a gas system which is lighter and less expensive to produce because of its simplicity than the present gas systems now used in automatic rifle mechanisms.

It is another object of this invention to utilize the energy of the expanding gas developed by the firing of the weapon, for actuating the automatic rifle mechanism directly by use of a metered amount of the gas coming from the barrel. This invention is a true expanding gas system instead of the conventional impinging gas system. By utilization of a metered amount of gas from the barrel, the automatic rifle mechanism is less sensitive to different firing pressures caused by variations in the propelling charge. It is therefore still another object of this invention, to provide a rifle mechanism which is not affected by variations in the propelling charge.

A further object of this invention is to provide smoother operation and longer life of the working parts of the automatic rifle mechanism. Since, in this invention, the actuating force is transmitted directly down the center line of the barrel and the bolt mechanism to the shoulder of the shooter, all of the off center loads found in most other types of gas actuated Weapons are eliminated. It will therefore be obvious because of this factor that another object of this invention is to cut down on climb which occurs during automatic firing operations.

The patent is HERE
The beauty of this system that gas from the gas tube enters the gas key and from there it expands inside the bolt carrier. The bolt carrier starts moving back which causes the bolt to unlock and perform the extraction and ejection. As soon as the bolt carrier moves far enough back that the gas tube is withdrawn from the gas key, the flow of gas acting on the bolt carrier is stopped. Gas might still be venting into the upper receiver but it is not acting on the bolt carrier anymore. The advantage is that unlike earlier direct impingement systems (like the Swedish Ljungman), once the sytem gets enough gas to operate and then it stops accepting gas. So cartridges loaded to lower pressures as well as higher pressures will cause the mechanism to work properly. Of course there are limits but for the most part cartridges loaded to different levels will allow the system to function normally. Earlier DI systems needed a very precise amount of gas to operate.

What I can't figure is, what did they do with the recoil spring and tube? That Carbon 16 that I always liked still had the tube extendong backwards.

Tim, lets look at Olympic Arms 1995 patent on a semi automatic pistol. That will give you your answer.

The present invention overcomes the disadvantages of the above-described firearms by providing a modified M16 pistol design that utilizes standard rifle cartridges such as the 5.56 mm NATO (.223 Rem.) caliber without need for an extended buffer chamber at the rear of the pistol. The present invention achieves its advantages by providing a modified M16 pistol which utilizes a shortened M16 bolt assembly and a spring-biased buffer system mounted in the upper portion of the receiver, above the bolt assembly.

Patent available HERE

The Extar EXP (EXtreme lightweight Pistol) uses a standard M16 bolt carrier with the back cut off shortly after the firing pin (a la the Olympic Arms pistol). The back of the "gas key" is flat and the spring bears on it. The end cap at the back of the pistol has a little nubbin that keeps the spring in place. I'm pretty sure they are using a smaller gas port than normal to reduce the speed of the bolt carrier. This allows them to get by with a much smaller spring. Either way it works well and I have used a bunch of different cartridges; low power Russian steel cased, low power Russian brass cased, 5.56 M193 (55 gr.) NATO, 5.56 M855 (62 gr.) NATO and various .223 loadings. It even works flawlessly with my handloads loaded from the minimum to the maximum charge detailed in my reloading manuals. No failures so far, to feed, fire or eject no matter how fast trigger is pulled.


In this disassembly video, you can see how it comes apart and how it goes back together.
A very simple mechanism.

[xl_target]

The Extar EXP


It comes in a neat little box, well protected for shipping


There isn't much in the box but the pistol, the instruction manual and a magazine.


A new sporting goods store opened in town and I was able to pick up a nifty little digital camo case during their grand opening week.


All ready for the zombies?


Here is a comparison to my carbine. Notice the similarities in the receiver area?
The carbine has a rear charging handle but the pistol is a side charger.

Keep in mind that the carbine is short but the pistol is 18" long.
I installed a Bushnell red dot as it is very light and will keep the weight down as well as fit the close range purpose of the Extar.
Still, it weighs next to nothing and will pack in a backpack.
The pistol grips are different but they are interchangeable and so is the trigger, safety, bolt release, magazine release, hammer and springs in the lower.


There is a fireball with each shot, its just that the camera in not in sync and misses some frames.
This is literally a blast to shoot.

I was going to take the Chrono out and get some velocity readings but it has been really overcast lately.
I will do velocity and accuracy tests as soon as I can.
.

.