Nirbheek name controversy...

[surajshuresh]

Hi thank you captrakshitsharma. As for the statistics who ever has done research papers or statistical studies know how difficult it is and how expensive it is to do because i know. Topics such as this require a lot of primary data and secondary data collection and proper test statistics should be used and the observations or research findings may not be 100% specific because of the existence of an small error rate and variation in the nature and condition of both the types of data.

[surajshuresh]

Hi,

Just my opinion

IOF

1) The only point out of the article agreed by me is that the naming of the weapon should have been different and may be
they should have consulted concerned people before naming.
Its a matter of ultra sensitivity and needs proper attention/consideration.

2) whats with 1 Lakh + pricing? That's another Laughable work by IOF . Make it affordable guys(IOF) not a statement of luxury

Ms. Binalakshmi :

And this lady "Ms. Binalakshmi" needs some serious gyan/counselled on weapons and weapon related advantage

Government/Police omnipresence for all crimes is not possible anywhere in the world and that is why this concept of self defense has evolved, I guess Ms. Binalakshmi is not aware about it

what is she talking about government failure? Ridiculous

regards

RA.50

Well thats what i also said name could have been something different more appropriate and unisex because even males buy this firearm and dont they will prefer such names and i cant believe that IOF cant even name a firearm properly even though this made of titanium alloy its not worth a lakh just expensive paper weight. Considering it has 500gms of titanium and machine work involved in the production it must cost only 10k to 15k max for it because of inefficient methods used by IOF if they had more efficiency and more volume then they can make it much cheaper. It high time that IOF produce new designs. One of the problems is they give out to many tenders for each and everything to different people there goes your quality.

http://www.cafi-online.org/disarmament-poster.html

One more funny thing i found on CAFI. Now they want to disarm the military these people dont understand that people are waiting to tear us apart and eat us like a bunch of wolf from sides of the border. I wish these people were born during the British India rule.

What should our soldiers do, what should employees of the IOF and defense ministry do close doors and go live in the mountains... I cant believe people play the poverty card for each and every dam thing the country does. Development has to be done in all sectors not only removing poverty in fact development in other sectors like space, defense infrastructure help in eradication of poverty...

[RA.50]

Hey Suraj,

Rightly Said

Everybody these days use a common escape route "research says or study says or stats say etc. etc " in order to support their voices so that nobody challenges them

But, Who checks the authenticity of these researches / stats as they are projected??
When asked for the explanation under what conditions these research or stats were conducted. They start giving unacceptable reasons.

These very data that they collect are of a minor fraction truth and they turn it to their benefit by adding falsified information.

Now, Lets ask that lady Ms. Binalakshmi if she has ever conducted a "Research or Stat collection" for the amount of Rape/Crime/robbery/assault which have been avoided by just pointing a gun to scare the criminal / to avoid rape / just fire in air so that the criminal runs for his life???

I am sure that the above statistics will be way better than any other

Regards,

RA.50

[essdee1972]

I was speaking to an experienced ex-Army officer (and also IFG member) the other day. His opinion was that the Webley design which the IOF has been exploiting for the last few decades is extremely difficult for even well-built and trained people to handle, much less a lady who has probably fired 4-5 shots at the range (ammo quota, anyone??). Having never held such things, I can't have a personal opinion!

So, this gun is mostly a marketing ploy. If you think about it, how many people can hold 500 gm straight at a time when adrenaline is rushing through the system?

And as for people who think that government is the answer to violence, I have this to say.......

Argument 1:
How many cops (or security agents) per citizen do you need? Since the reaction has to be instantaneous (your security guy has to pre-empt the attacker), you need ONE PROTECTOR PER PROTECTEE (at least one, VIPs go around with scores of protectors). If the protector (whether the local havaldar or Spiderman) is even an instant late, the attacker can do enough damage to the protectee.
So you have a country in which 50% people are cops!!! "Police State" gets a new definition!!! (who'll pay the salaries, I wonder??!!??)

Argument 2:
We all know (and never cease to complain) about the venal, rent-seeking behaviour of the cops. Every motorist is ready with a 50 or 100 INR note to "take care" of the cops if said motorist jumps the signal or something, and is caught. Are you sure you want such kinda people taking care of you, ma'am?

Argument 3:
Every kid is told to "stand on his/her feet". Is this limited only to earning money? Why not to self-defence? Why should we try to be independent as regards income and still remain dependent when it comes to saving oneself?

Argument 4:
I agree that teaching people to respect others will be the best solution ("best" = "utopian"). However, two issues here......(1) how long will it take, and what happens in the meantime, and (2) what is the guarantee of 100% success? Please remember, even 1% failure, in a country of 1 billion, would mean 10 million potential criminals!!

But, what's the use of me or the rest of IFG framing nice logical arguments, when the "other side" isn't ready to listen to logic?

And just a word about the new "anti-rape" laws...... how does a law get passed which overturns the first premise of any fair legal system - that the accused is presumed innocent unless proved guilty beyond reasonable doubt??

[surajshuresh]

Yes what you said is true RA.50 recently i read a new post in which a girl who was pulled into a car by some men avoided rape by pointing out and defending herself with a small pocket knife that she had in her bag. They got afraid and left her...

[mundaire]

To anyone who wonders about the effects of women arming themselves on their own personal security, may I point you to an academic paper on this subject:


"Dangerous Women": Feminism, Self-Defense, and Civil Rights
by Robert L. Barrow JD. and Gary Mauser Ph.D.

An excellent paper, a must read for all - men and women alike!

http://www.sfu.ca/~mauser/papers/women/ ... stract.pdf

I had posted this some years ago at http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1476

PLEASE NOTE: This is a *.PDF file, so you will need a "reader" software to view it (for example Adobe Acrobat Reader).

As to the product pricing versus quality of the IOF made handguns, the less said the better! IIRC some years back it cost the IOF somewhere in the region of Rupees 9,000 to manufacture the 9mm Browning pistol copy that they supply to the security forces. Since the .32 pistol is a much smaller pistol and a simpler design to produce, I would assume that even for a highly inefficient and thoroughly corrupt organisation the price of production would be southwards of 8,000 (if that). The IOF .32 handguns are all priced above Rupees 80,000, this new titanium "wonder weapon" is priced north of 1.2 Lacs! This is an organisation which has NO MANDATE from the parliament to earn profits! I really wonder if it costs them more to make so simple a device than it costs Tata to manufacture a Nano car - which 4 wheels, engine, gearbox, seats, etc. etc.

If a private manufacturer were to mass produce compact handguns in India, they could easily manufacture & retail (including profit) a lightweight polymer pistol for less than Rupees 5,000/-. It is only when such realistic prices are reached that we can even talk about women arming themselves in large numbers. Till that happens, unfortunately this will merely remain an academic discussion.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[James_Bond]

Its Nirbheek, than great it is.

[xl_target]

His opinion was that the Webley design which the IOF has been exploiting for the last few decades is extremely difficult for even well-built and trained people to handle, much less a lady who has probably fired 4-5 shots at the range (ammo quota, anyone??). Having never held such things, I can't have a personal opinion!

Esdee, I haven't fired or even held one of these IOF revolvers but it fires a .32 S&W Long cartridge. That is a pipsqueak cartridge. I have, however, fired other handgun cartridges with substantially more power than that.
How hard can it be to shoot one of those IOF revolvers?

[timmy]

His opinion was that the Webley design which the IOF has been exploiting for the last few decades is extremely difficult for even well-built and trained people to handle, much less a lady who has probably fired 4-5 shots at the range (ammo quota, anyone??). Having never held such things, I can't have a personal opinion!

Esdee, I haven't fired or even held one of these IOF revolvers but it fires a .32 S&W Long cartridge. That is a pipsqueak cartridge. I have, however, fired other handgun cartridges with substantially more power than that.
How hard can it be to shoot one of those IOF revolvers?

I haven't shot an IOF .32, either, and I think that the recoil can't be that much to write home about. However, I do know that my Wife isn't always happy about shooting my double action revolvers in double action mode. It is a small hands and long, somewhat heavy trigger pull that she objects to. Practice is something that can ameliorate such a problem, but I do wonder how many women would have such an opportunity.

The fact that the revolver is offered under such a marketing scheme can't be a bad thing, and a light weight revolver is also a step in the right direction.

[kenhypno]

other than the name ...i think i am going out of context here...sorry, but it is expensive over a lakh of rupees...which only rich can afford,and tell me which rich girl/woman walks home from work in a dark alley??

[essdee1972]

XL and Timmy, the feedback I got was from someone who fired similar IOF Webley copies while in the Service. It was not about the recoil but the accuracy, or lack thereof. Also, I believe the recoil has much to do with the design of the gun also (correct me if I am wrong, my experience is limited to air "weapons"). Plus the "fitment" (for want of a better word) of the gun and the cartridge would also play a role, would it not?

But.............. as Abhijeet says above, with a gun priced above the monthly income levels of top 5% of Indians, and with the licensing scenario what it is, all this is academic.

[TC]

I haven't shot an IOF .32, either, and I think that the recoil can't be that much to write home about. However, I do know that my Wife isn't always happy about shooting my double action revolvers in double action mode. It is a small hands and long, somewhat heavy trigger pull that she objects to. Practice is something that can ameliorate such a problem, but I do wonder how many women would have such an opportunity.

The fact that the revolver is offered under such a marketing scheme can't be a bad thing, and a light weight revolver is also a step in the right direction.

Timmy.... and XL and Essdee.
I have fired quite a few rounds through two earlier versions of the IOF .32 revolver though I don't own one. These are my observations.

a) Very very stiff and uneven trigger pull in DA mode. If I compared that to to my Colt Officer's Model March it would like putting up a chainsaw against a laser cutter.
b) To fire in SA mode, cocking the hammer with thumb of the firing hand, as should be the practice, is quite tough (and again, uneven) and certainly not suitable for a lady of average Indian build, strength and palm size. In fact I find many men cocking the hammer with thumb of the non-firing hand to make maximum use of strength and gripping surface.
c) Even in SA mode the let off takes about 6-7 pounds of pressure (didn't measure with a gauge but that's what I felt while trying out three revolvers from different batches). Accuracy is the obvious tradeoff.
d) After much practice I could put six rounds in a five inch group at 25 mts. Couldn't do any better.
e) The factory grips are a little uncomfortable, though I much say they are much bigger and better to hold than the tiny panels most old Webley 32s came with. An old gentleman at my rifle club got a pair of fine wooden panels made for his revolver and things changed drastically.

I must mention here there after good bit of polishing of the internal parts and tuning, the same revolver performs much better. In fact replacing the hammer spring with a lighter one or cutting off one or two coils from the original has drastically changed the experience for many people. No it certainly doesn't turn into a piece from the SW Performance Center but things do get better.

However, if the advertisement is to be believed, the Nirbheek has a lighter hammer spring as well. Though only time can tell how light it is.



TC

[TC]

But.............. as Abhijeet says above, with a gun priced above the monthly income levels of top 5% of Indians, and with the licensing scenario what it is, all this is academic.

Precisely.... this advertisement is just some babu's brainchild. The pricing is the decision of the bigger babu's playing Friday to politicians who are supposed to protect India's women.

TC

[Virendra S Rathore]

I was speaking to an experienced ex-Army officer (and also IFG member) the other day. His opinion was that the Webley design which the IOF has been exploiting for the last few decades is extremely difficult for even well-built and trained people to handle, much less a lady who has probably fired 4-5 shots at the range (ammo quota, anyone??). Having never held such things, I can't have a personal opinion!

So, this gun is mostly a marketing ploy. If you think about it, how many people can hold 500 gm straight at a time when adrenaline is rushing through the system?

And as for people who think that government is the answer to violence, I have this to say.......

Argument 1:
How many cops (or security agents) per citizen do you need? Since the reaction has to be instantaneous (your security guy has to pre-empt the attacker), you need ONE PROTECTOR PER PROTECTEE (at least one, VIPs go around with scores of protectors). If the protector (whether the local havaldar or Spiderman) is even an instant late, the attacker can do enough damage to the protectee.
So you have a country in which 50% people are cops!!! "Police State" gets a new definition!!! (who'll pay the salaries, I wonder??!!??)

Argument 2:
We all know (and never cease to complain) about the venal, rent-seeking behaviour of the cops. Every motorist is ready with a 50 or 100 INR note to "take care" of the cops if said motorist jumps the signal or something, and is caught. Are you sure you want such kinda people taking care of you, ma'am?

Argument 3:
Every kid is told to "stand on his/her feet". Is this limited only to earning money? Why not to self-defence? Why should we try to be independent as regards income and still remain dependent when it comes to saving oneself?

Argument 4:
I agree that teaching people to respect others will be the best solution ("best" = "utopian"). However, two issues here......(1) how long will it take, and what happens in the meantime, and (2) what is the guarantee of 100% success? Please remember, even 1% failure, in a country of 1 billion, would mean 10 million potential criminals!!

But, what's the use of me or the rest of IFG framing nice logical arguments, when the "other side" isn't ready to listen to logic?

And just a word about the new "anti-rape" laws...... how does a law get passed which overturns the first premise of any fair legal system - that the accused is presumed innocent unless proved guilty beyond reasonable doubt??

Well I won't get into the name controversy or Nirbheek's specific advantages here, but this is what Patna Cops were saying when quizzed about Nirbheek:
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1140130/j ... wogmM7Ahw0

....Police officials also believe that women would feel more secure while carrying the weapon in their bag or purse. “It would certainly work as a deterrent against criminals who harass women at deserted places,” Patna senior superintendent of police (SSP) Manu Maharaaj said. “A .32 bore revolver can hit a target within 25 metres,” he added, praising the gun.

Maharaj said a licensed firearm owner can fire upon their attackers under the provisions of the right to protection of life. “Normally in our society the perpetrators of crime don't expect resistance from the target. If a woman carries a handgun and suddenly whips it out from the bag, they would think twice before indulging in any sort of harassment,” the SSP said....

As for the one protector per person scenario, here's story of the Indian Cop to People ratio :
UN recommendation is 222 cops per 1 lakh people.
As per the Bureau of Police Research and Development, India - 176 cops per 1 lakh people is the minimum requirement.
India Govt. sanctioned figure is 145.
There are actually 131 Cops available per 1 Lakh Indians, in which deducing the ones on VIP duty (3 cops per VIP), in reality we're left with 106 Cops per 1 lakh people.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 869512.cms
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-po ... rs-1879695

Regards,
Virendra

[Hammerhead]

Haven't gone through the whole post but ??

"Our research shows that a person is 12 times more likely to be shot dead if they are carrying a gun when attacked," she told AFP.

"It also shows that the government of India has failed to protect women by resorting to this. Arming women is not a responsible way to secure their safety and security," she said

Hello dear lady, the whole statement is self contradictory.

Government can't protect you and you are likely to be killed by the gun that you are carrying !!!!
-------- So you go at the mercy of your rapist

And BTW where you get your research, India doesn't have 9 women in the whole country those carry a gun on daily bases !!!!