.318 Westley Richards or .404 Jeffery

[Grumpy]

Unless people have experienced the process of cleaning a well used military rifle they would never believe how long the process can take ..... and how sick one can get at the sight of green. I expect that you have found rifles that have had to be cleaned over two days like I have. The really dispiriting thing is when, after several hours, the green is just a tinge of colour ..... and then the next pass produces a vivid green smear.
It`s remarkable just how well a barrel that looks dull - and is pitted - can shoot ................and how poorly a mirror finished bore with crisp rifling can shoot. With military rifles in particular the bore sizes can vary quite a lot and some are hopeless from brand new. Late WWII K98s and wartime production Mosin-Nagants are the worst `offenders` in my - limited - experience with military rifles.
Is your M39 a Sako ? Some of those can be found in stunningly good condition.
I think that Mosin Nagant M38 carbines are amongst the best handling military rifles ever made .... and some can be found with a pronounced roach-belly which combines the benefits of both a straight grip and a pistol grip.

[timmy]

Grumpy, AB, and Vikram:

First, on solution would be for the fellow to give his wife his .315 and get the .30-06.

Next, the description of thinking the whole business is taken care of and getting the green bloom on the next cleaning session's patch -- ugh! That's what's called "heartbreak"!

Grumpy, mine is a VKT. People will pay more for a Sako, but the quality is the same -- they are all a Finn barrel on an old Muscovite receiver (except for an odd barrel from Belgium). You also have the choice of receiver too. Mine's an Izhevsk. A collector will give you more for a Tula, but again, they are the same. I'd have preferred a Sestroryetsk receiver (the first arsenal in Russia to make MNs), but for a shooter, it makes no real difference, other than satisfaction (which can be a big deal). All of the M39s can be had practically brand new, if you have the money. The ones that have receivers made before 1898 don't need a dealer to buy from, even! I don't know when my receiver was made, because the year stamping is no longer clear.

I was told by a shoe manufacturer who had the skeleton of a foot in his shop that the Soviet Union's biggest hard cash source was exporting cadavers for medical research in the first years after the October Revolution. I guess Lenin was an early exponent of recycling. But it does give insight into the conditions of the time. Finn M39s were made from the receivers the Muscovites left behind and from those the Finns traded for. They shipped off Mauser stuff to Poland, Germany, Austria, and whatever and whoever to get MNs after Finland gained its freedom.

Some MNs can be rough. My M39 is very smooth and I like the feel of it very much. I like the looks of the "hex" receivers, but also have a round 1938 M91/30. It has the reinforcing ring like a M98 Mauser, which the Soviets eliminated in that year to speed production and save on costs. Both versions are strong enough to take the 7.62x54r, but I want the ring, so that's what I get. Another one of "them things"; a guy's got to get what satisfies him.

I can understand Miroflex's desire for something different. When you have your heart set on something, you just don't want anything else. he has to weigh the cost and make up his own mind; nobody can do that part for him.

I have long been keen on nice stuff like Herb has shown us, and if I hadn't fallen in love with MNs, my bankroll and gun safe would both be more empty.

[Grumpy]

Vikram and I are founder members of the `something different` club - individuality, character, build quality and general interest count for a lot.

[miroflex]

.....
I have to say that all three calibres are extremely good at what they do - the 318 W-R has enjoyed a minor revival in the US in recent years and there are signs that the .333 Jeffery might also - it is undoubtedly the superior calibre of the two. The .404 has been used very successfully but don`t think it is comparable to the .416 Rigby because it definitely isn`t.
Frankly I don`t really understand why you would want a rifle in any of the three calibres because if the ammunition has very limited - or zero - availability you effectively have a wallhanger. .318 W-R and .333 Jeffery ( even more so ) are not exactly available `off the shelf` in the US even ( and definitely not in the UK. ) If you want a rifle that you can actually shoot one of the IOFs would seem the most sensible option by far.

Thank you very much for your remarks Grumpy.

I agree that .333 Jeffery rifles and cartridges are very difficult to obtain in India. .318 and .404 rifles are also very scarce considering their popularity in their heyday.

I am attracted to these rifles for the same reason that I am drawn towards old cameras, cars and motorcycles. They represent a bygone era, memories of which are worth preserving. Looking at these fine old products of yesteryear, one is transported back in time to the "good old days". They may not have been so good in reality but seem so in retrospect.

I have been scrounging around for old cartridges with quite a bit of help from fellow members of this forum as well as those from another site for gun lovers.

Regards.

[miroflex]

Hi miroflex what about the two mote dump bores 250and 405 you have enquired.It seems you are good proffessor on old guns,rifles etc.Yeda ban kar peda khana.You have posted on this matter and you knew every ifgns can take pain to help his fellows.I amsure you have all the informations about what dealers have and whatt they dont have in stock.This is buissnes and i am not part of this i would like to be a shoemaker.against i wt i pros go u tnx

Hi Ashok,

Thank you for your post. I and my wife have applied for one licence each for non prohibited bore rifles and have been actively pursuing the matter with the powers that be for nearly half a year or more. We hope the licences will be issued soon.

We have been relentlessly searching for old rifles so that the purchases can be made soon after the licences are issued. Basically we were looking for reasonably priced weapons for which cartridges are available. One of the rifles we had zeroed on was the .250-3000 Savage in Model 1899 lever action form. The cartridge gives good performance with moderate recoil. The calibre is unfortunately not included in the Director General of Foreign Trade's list of rifle cartridges which are permitted to be imported by dealers. Hence the help rendered by you and others in trying to locate cartridges is very welcome.

In case cartridges for this calibre are unobtainable, I have been considering other calibres, including the .22 Hi Power Savage and the .318 Westley Richards for my wife.

I have been considering a heavier rifle for myself, possibly a .405 Winchester or a .404 Jeffery if cartridges for the same are available.

Regards.