For all those who think thay can not handle a .45

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Re: For all those who think thay can not handle a .45

Post by hvj1 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:11 pm

Hello XL,

I am aware of the rules and yet again I point out that I am concerned only with recoil and rate of fire. Targets, their size and distances are irrelevent.

I would love be proved wrong, if only to meet the kid and watch hims shoot. For all I care he can shoot a .357 mag or .44 mag. I suggest WTP can sponsor the eyewitness trip to Manilla. :D

Finally, I have had the pleasure of being on this forum since the last 2-3 years, during this sojourn, I have had the singular opportunity to widen my mental horizons, kind courtesy a lot of knowledgeble persons including yourself. I would love to name all of them, but afraid to leave out some due to oversight. I take my hat off to all you gentlemen out there. Including those, who are quick to jump to conclusions, have a 'in the face' kind of abrasive attitude. Because even these gentlemen, exhibit a whacky and quirky sense of humour which adds a lots of spice to the forum.

Sarcasm has been my modus operandi while meeting such fellows and I have built bridges with a few of them, like WTP. But the backbone of this bridge has always been humility and politeness.

I wish all my fellow IFGians a lot of 'bridges'. :D
:cheers:

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Re: For all those who think thay can not handle a .45

Post by Skyman » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:08 pm

At the end of the video the kid holds up the mag.You can see the first shell.Perhaps you all could take a look.It seems to be a short and stubby shell quite like a .45.
I would rather hit my target gently than miss hard.

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Re: For all those who think thay can not handle a .45

Post by Mack The Knife » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:11 pm

I start with apologies to other forum members and Mods because today, after having spent seven years on this forum, I feel tempted to question my own sensibilities. And, for all the good reasons.
You can always add those who offend your sensibilities to your ignore list or you can even leave if it bothers you so much. However, should you decide to stay and post, do expect some of your posts to be challenged or corrected or negatively commented upon should another member have a contrary opinion to yours. I'd much rather you stay but the choice is entirely yours. Remember....if you don't like my posts, there's always the ignore list... :mrgreen:
You mention personal experience. Can you please tell us how many children have undergone firearms training under your guidance and how many of them have proved to be as safe as adults "well versed" (now that's a new usage of the word in weaponry) in safe gun handling ?


Both my sons have been taught safe gun handling by me. Whether it's a toy pop gun, airgun or firearm, the same rules of safe gun handling apply all the time. No exceptions, other than that the airguns and firearms are kept in the gun cabinet and toy guns in their toy boxes but those plastic BBs stay in the gun cabinet. I trust my sons but not all their friends to play safely. I have taught others, including adults, but I am obviously not around them all the time to see whether or not they use their guns safely.
Your confidence tells me the number must be substantial or else it could not have been the conclusive result of your survey.
The number is substantial enough for the simple reason I have seen many children exhibit safe gun handling skills. Who taught them safe gun handling is immaterial. What matters is that children can be taught safe gun handling.
And before you reply please take a good look at the youtube video that I posted and not the one this thread started with. Please watch the whole video.. right to the end so that the definition of "child" becomes clear to you as a father.


I don't understand what he said at the end but weren't you and I the same age, give or take a year, when we shot a firearm? I am well aware of the definition of 'child', the same as your father and uncle were or do you think they got it wrong as well?
Mack I have one question to ask - At precisely what age did your children start playing with toy guns?
Just one? I see loads of them. If this was a court, I'd have thought I was being cross-examined. :mrgreen: They must have been two or three years when they started playing with toy guns. Won't you ask how old I was? :mrgreen:
Are you suggesting that you gave them real guns and toy guns on the same day ?
Common TC, stop being a ruddy bore.

Common TC, stop being a ruddy bore. What does "My children were taught safe gun handling the day they started playing with toy guns." 'suggest'?
Did they show interest in both and is that what prompted you to teach them how to handle the real gun?
I am sure they were interested in my firearms and airguns but they were not permitted to touch them. When they grew old enough to physically handle airguns, I cobbled up a couple for them.
In that case who taught them to use the toy guns?
Guess? It sure as hell wasn't you, otherwise they would still be waiting. :mrgreen:
Because my shallow knowledge (which seems to be getting shallower every minute now) tells me that even certain toy guns need adult supervision, at least when they are used for the first time. I really want to be enlightened here.
Before you seek enlightment, you must find a Bodhi tree to sit under. :mrgreen: Now that you are comfortable, guess what??? Take a bow, TC, take a bow! You finally got something right!!! ROTFL
And gentlemen, let me tell you that people who know their weapons follow their instincts and not "common sense" when they touch a weapon - be it a firearm or a razor.
Ahhh...and isn't that precisely why some common sense should be employed? :wink:

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Re: For all those who think thay can not handle a .45

Post by tirpassion » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:47 pm

Dear all,
I find no harm in teaching gun safety and shooting to children (on the contrary, it should be done to draw a definite line between the virtual and the reality). I will obviously give a thought to the age factor, my only concern being the health and growth factor of the child and I will obviously make sure that the children do not have access to the guns on their own sweet will.
Shooting 50 shots with a rifle which weighs 3/4 kilos means lifting more than 150 kilos which is not very good for the growing children. Moreover, shooting being an asymmetrical sport we hardly do any good to the body (we must compensate the non shooting side).
It does not matter if it is an occasional shooting for children but when it comes to regular practice children less than 13 years should use a support for shooting. And for handguns, I would go against big bores for children for the recoil factor and possible wrist injury cited by hvj1.

The example of skeetshot and his son is really inspiring. Wish everyone follows (followed...) the same path.
I know a man in France whose father was a regional double trap champion. In their farmhouse, they had (still have) the clay pigeon throwing machines. His father initiated him at an early age to shooting. It was shooting every week-end at home, hundreds of cartridges with friends and family members. At 16 he started chronic shoulder problems. At 18, he stopped shooting for good; At 24 he left his father's home to be on his own and then on he is completely apathetic to guns. He says that he has had an overdose. He never initiated his two daughters to guns. He is 62 now and he is my father-in-law.
Since, I do not wish to recreate the grandfather in law act, I am going slowly but steadily with my children :D :D . Right now, it is Air weapons only with support for the 7 & 1/2 yr old boy.

best regards
tirpassion

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Re: For all those who think thay can not handle a .45

Post by FN-Five-Seven » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:45 am

tirpassion wrote:Dear all,
I find no harm in teaching gun safety and shooting to children (on the contrary, it should be done to draw a definite line between the virtual and the reality).


tirpassion wrote:I will obviously give a thought to the age factor, my only concern being the health and growth factor of the child and I will obviously make sure that the children do not have access to the guns on their own sweet will.
Good points indeed .


Oh ! Darn I have violated the "Minimum Word Per Post " rule set by an Gun safety instructor again !!! ROTFL

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Re: For all those who think thay can not handle a .45

Post by ranjit.jagtap » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:22 pm

[quote]I would like to drawn your attention to something which is very important . Do look up the The Arms Rule , 1962 . Under Rule 16 , it states that the minimum age for a person to shoot a firearm , for target practicing or training ,is 12 years , under direct adult supervision of an instructor or licensee . So if anyone allows a kid less than 12 years , say 7 or 8 , to fire an firearm , he is in direct violation of The Arms Rules ,1962 . And if the Licensing Authority or any other concerned authority gets a whif of any such violations , rest assure that they will be working overtime to revoke the Arms License and may even pile up other charges against such individual . [quote]

Thanks FN-Five-Seven for bringing up the 1962 Arms Rule. This was the much needed citation on this thread. This rule came into force on October 1, 1962 i.e. some 50 years ago. That is a long time ago. Now I am really concerned about some of my fellow friends who were caught unaware. As I said earlier, with guns responsibility is everything.
Cheers...

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Re: For all those who think thay can not handle a .45

Post by Mack The Knife » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:12 pm

Strangely enough none of you brought this up in your initial posts. Could it be because your initial posts concerned children the world over and not just India? If not, are the three of you okay with overseas children taking up shooting sports?

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Re: For all those who think thay can not handle a .45

Post by tirpassion » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:41 pm

Dear Mack,
Children are children wherever be it in the world. Their education is the responsibility of their respective parents be it academic, social, civic and so on (you can add on the gun education too). I repeat, I am only concerned with the health of the children. The parents should be careful of the hazards, regular shooting might induce in their children. We in France, recommend children to adopt regular shooting sport from 9 years but always with support till the age of 13.
best regards
tirpassion

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Re: For all those who think thay can not handle a .45

Post by Mack The Knife » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:03 pm

Tirpassion,

You have a point but there are firearms and calibres for young children to start with.

However, my initial comment was directed at the reasons advanced by TC, Ranjit and FN57 and that is all I care to discuss on this thread.

Regards,

Mack The Knife

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Re: For all those who think thay can not handle a .45

Post by hvj1 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:39 pm

Mack The Knife wrote:
You have a point but there are firearms and calibres for young children to start with.
:agree:

Precisely why kids are started off on airguns, due to their low or negligible recoil and report. To primarily avoid, (due to loud report) blinking, which leads to anticipation of the shot, yanking on the trigger.

Over a satisfactory period of time, when the parent is confident of the child regarding safety rules adherence and with no traces of the above mentioned three avoidable points, lower calibres such as .22 can be taken up, preferrably with long guns and bench rest.

Then it is upto the parent to introduce higher calibres at a later stage.

Ultimately it is at the discretion of the parent, when to introduce his/her child to shooting and progress to higher calibres.

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Re: For all those who think thay can not handle a .45

Post by Mack The Knife » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:20 pm

Precisely why kids are started off on airguns, due to their low or negligible recoil and report. To primarily avoid, (due to loud report) blinking, which leads to anticipation of the shot, yanking on the trigger.
I disagree. Many parents cannot afford an additional airgun, viz. a junior or sub-junior sized airgun. Airguns usually weigh more than .22lr sporting rimfires. Airguns recoil more or the same as a .22lr. Some countries permit sound moderators and where these are restricted or prohibited, ear protection can and should be worn. Unlike India, .22lr rimfire rifles and pistols are cheaper than airguns in many countries, thus making it economically viable for the parent/s to start their children off on rimfires, where the law permits. 'Flinching' due to the report of the gun, is addressed by proper shooting methods and ear protection.
Over a satisfactory period of time, when the parent is confident of the child regarding safety rules adherence and with no traces of the above mentioned three avoidable points, lower calibres such as .22 can be taken up, preferrably with long guns and bench rest.
I do not agree with the implied suggestion that a plastic BB gun or airgun should be treated with any less consideration for safety than a firearm.
Ultimately it is at the discretion of the parent, when to introduce his/her child to shooting and progress to higher calibres.
I agree with this but would also add that the build, strength and training imparted to the child can and should determine the weight of the airgun/firearm and the calibre, in the case of the latter.

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Re: For all those who think thay can not handle a .45

Post by TC » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:01 pm

Tirpassion,

Thanks for sharing a personal experience and your insight. There is a lot to learn here. While you and hjv1 have pointed out the effects firearms can have on a child's body I am equally (if not more) concerned about a child's mind and this applies to all children across the globe.

Since I participated in a similar IPSC match in Philippines and took part in somewhat similar drills in our Army establishments I am quite convinced that rapid firing at silhouette targets that resemble a human head and body in size and shape can have a negative impact on a kid's mind - something that may not show up immediately or may be never, but cannot be ruled out. With my experience I refuse to deny the qualitative difference between plinking at a beer can, a water balloon or a standard paper target with an air rifle or a .22 single shot (all UNDER ADULT SUPERVISION) and emptying magazines of 45 slugs into human shaped targets standing at six or seven yards (UNDER ADULT SUPERVISION).... No amount of adult supervision can decide or detect what is going on inside a child's mind when he is following instructions and emptying his magazines into what looks like a human torso. These games are essentially designed for adults who want to test their skills in combat shooting.

XL explained in detail the rules of IPSC and weapons that are used. But I was only talking about the kid. Given a choice most kids (his age) on this planet would love to do what he is doing (as I said they are already exposed to too much of violence taking place around us) and many would probably excel as well. But what after that ? If a six yer old is already a master in IPSC what would you give him to shoot when he is 16 and experiencing that adrenalin rush.

Timmy I am not here to preach and certainly not here to make people follow my line of thought. Thanks for sharing your personal experience but I believe we are talking of different things here.

Mack I will follow your advice on certain topics. IGNORE....
Thank you Thomas Gray for those words of wisdom.

Cheers

TC

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Re: For all those who think thay can not handle a .45

Post by Mack The Knife » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:50 am

TC wrote:Mack I will follow your advice on certain topics. IGNORE....
No problem, TC. Just don't expect a contentious post to go unchallenged and/or corrected. I do wonder why someone who felt free to ask me several questions, wont bother answering those put to him. Could it be that he has dug himself deep enough and is finding it difficult to get out but does not have the good grace to admit he is wrong?
With my experience I refuse to deny the qualitative difference between plinking at a beer can, a water balloon or a standard paper target with an air rifle or a .22 single shot (all UNDER ADULT SUPERVISION) and emptying magazines of 45 slugs into human shaped targets standing at six or seven yards (UNDER ADULT SUPERVISION)....
Good to see airguns and .22 rimfires get your approval. Finally!
No amount of adult supervision can decide or detect what is going on inside a child's mind when he is following instructions and emptying his magazines into what looks like a human torso. These games are essentially designed for adults who want to test their skills in combat shooting.
In your opinion a combat oriented game may have an adverse effect on a child. Right? Millions of children have played at soldiers with their friends. Whilst their guns were harmless toys, they were still 'killing' real human beings. Did one out of a hundred (or whatever percentage you mentioned earlier) of these children turn out to be real life killers based on their childhood experience of playing soldiers or cops or cowboys?
Thank you Thomas Gray for those words of wisdom.
If ignorance be bliss to you, I suggest you keep those opinions based on ignorance to yourself.

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Re: For all those who think thay can not handle a .45

Post by xl_target » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:08 am

XL explained in detail the rules of IPSC and weapons that are used.
The reason that I explained the rules was because there was some concern that the kid was not firing an actual .45 caliber weapon.
Since I participated in a similar IPSC match in Philippines and took part in somewhat similar drills in our Army establishments I am quite convinced that rapid firing at silhouette targets that resemble a human head and body in size and shape can have a negative impact on a kid's mind - something that may not show up immediately or may be never, but cannot be ruled out. With my experience I refuse to deny the qualitative difference between plinking at a beer can, a water balloon or a standard paper target with an air rifle or a .22 single shot (all UNDER ADULT SUPERVISION) and emptying magazines of 45 slugs into human shaped targets standing at six or seven yards (UNDER ADULT SUPERVISION).... No amount of adult supervision can decide or detect what is going on inside a child's mind when he is following instructions and emptying his magazines into what looks like a human torso. These games are essentially designed for adults who want to test their skills in combat shooting.
There is no evidence that participating in shooting type games or even watching violent movies will in any way affect the future actions of a child.
When I was a child we regularly played, "cops and robber" or "army" or "cowboys and indians". I also watched with glee when the RoadRunner repeatedly dropped an anvil on the Coyote's head or led him of a cliff. I also watched movies like Alfred Hitchcock's "Psycho" in my formative years. I also read all the "commando" comics that I could lay my hands on. In spite of all that, I never turned into a Psychopathic killer. I could tell the difference between reality and make believe.

Human beings can reason. Even children can tell the difference between reality and a game. I know that I could and I'm sure most of you here could too. None of my friends that played those games with me ever turned into bloodthirsty killers either, at least as far as I know. :)

Shooting at a roughly pear shaped cardboard cut-out is no different from plinking at tin cans or plastic bottles. Most kids, even really young ones know the difference between apiece of paper and a real human being. So TC, I must, most respectfully, disagree with you on that score. :)

My daughter went everywhere with me when she was younger. We talked about every subject that a child would be concerned about and many others while in the car on our way to our various activities. It wasn't till she started getting heavily involved in activities at her school, in her teens, that she stopped accompanying me every evening and during weekends. Most of us who have children and have spent time around them while they were growing up, can tell what they are thinking, at least in their early childhood. She has seen guns and was exposed to hunting and other activities ever since she can remember and turned out quite normal when she grew to adulthood.
But I was only talking about the kid. Given a choice most kids (his age) on this planet would love to do what he is doing (as I said they are already exposed to too much of violence taking place around us) and many would probably excel as well. But what after that ? If a six yer old is already a master in IPSC what would you give him to shoot when he is 16 and experiencing that adrenalin rush.
There are many people who have reached the top of the shooting sports disciplines that they concentrate on. What do they do after they have reached the top? Surely their extreme familiarity with a tool doesn't cause them to then decide to use that tool in violent acts? I've never heard of a champion of any of the shooting sports turn into a hardened criminal.

So this kid might eventually become a world champion shooter or as he grows up he might not consider it such a big deal anymore and move on to other pursuits. Kids quite normally gravitate to other interests, that they might find challenging, later on. Either way we should not blame a tool, an inanimate object, for inadequate parental supervision or the lack of morals present in a person. If a person is morally corrupt he will misuse whatever he can lay his or her hands on whether it be a gun, an automobile, a knife, wealth or governmental power. If he isn't, he won't. It's really not that difficult.
“Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense” — Winston Churchill, Oct 29, 1941

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Re: For all those who think thay can not handle a .45

Post by hvj1 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:58 pm

Hello Mack,
I disagree. Many parents cannot afford an additional airgun, viz. a junior or sub-junior sized airgun. Airguns usually weigh more than .22lr sporting rimfires. Airguns recoil more or the same as a .22lr. Some countries permit sound moderators and where these are restricted or prohibited, ear protection can and should be worn. Unlike India, .22lr rimfire rifles and pistols are cheaper than airguns in many countries, thus making it economically viable for the parent/s to start their children off on rimfires, where the law permits. 'Flinching' due to the report of the gun, is addressed by proper shooting methods and ear protection.
Hence Parents who are keen on their children taking up the sport are inclined to enroll them in shooting clubs where all of the above mentioned points are taken care off by professional qualified trainers/coaches.
Over a satisfactory period of time, when the parent is confident of the child regarding safety rules adherence and with no traces of the above mentioned three avoidable points, lower calibres such as .22 can be taken up, preferrably with long guns and bench rest.
I do not agree with the implied suggestion that a plastic BB gun or airgun should be treated with any less consideration for safety than a firearm.
Not implied.
:cheers:

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