Lever Action or Double Rifle?

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Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?

Post by miroflex » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:21 pm

Raptor wrote:
miroflex wrote:Skyman,
It just seems to lack the cachet of the .405. I'll think over your advice before coming to a decision.

Regards.
Sir could you please explain ?
Regards
Skyman,

The Model 1895 Winchester in .405 WCF calibre acquired a lot of fame, being carried by ex President of the USA, the late Theodore Roosevelt on his African safari. It was also used against dangerous game in Africa, Asia and the two Americas by numerous hunters. Our own Kenneth Anderson added to its reputation by accounting for many man eating tigers with it and recounting his adventures in several books.

The thutty thutty, a medium game cartridge, was a reliable rather than a spectacular performer and lacked the .405s glamour of being one of the most powerful lever action cartridges.

Regards.
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Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?

Post by Raptor » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:11 pm

errr... Sorry for the trouble, so 'cachet' is glamor/prestige ? :D
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Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?

Post by miroflex » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:57 pm

Raptor wrote:errr... Sorry for the trouble, so 'cachet' is glamor/prestige ? :D
Raptor,

I had used it in the sense of "mark of distinction".

All the best.
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Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?

Post by Raptor » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:53 pm

miroflex wrote:
Raptor wrote:errr... Sorry for the trouble, so 'cachet' is glamor/prestige ? :D
Raptor,

I had used it in the sense of "mark of distinction".

All the best.
gotcha! :D
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Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?

Post by miroflex » Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:46 pm

winnie_the_pooh wrote:Microflex,

Getting .405 ammo would be a problem.When it (ammo) is available,it is expensive,generally old and of doubtful reliability.If your need is served by a rifle,I would suggest the IOF 30-06 or even the IOF .315.Eventually,any firearm is better than none.
Thanks for your advice Winnie.

Freshly loaded Winnchester.405 ammunition is being imported into India and sold by dealers at prices ranging from Rs. 450 to Rs. 600 per round.

I have an IOF .315 but find that the bolt does not always pick up and feed cartridges. Two Rivers has suggested that this may be due to the rims of the cartridges below being in front of the rims of the cartridges above thereby interfering with the feeding process. He has advised that while loading cartridges care be taken that as each cartridge is loaded into the magazine the rim of the one below lies to the rear of the rim of the one above. Ths will result in smoother feeding but will certainly slow down loading and reloading.

The accuracy of the .315 is also poor. Timmy and Two Rivers have both mentioned that the Model 1895 may not be very accurate either and may string the cartridges vertically with a spread of 8 to 9 inches.

I agree with you that any firearm is better than none. I was only asking members' opinions regarding some of the choices available to me.

Regards.
Last edited by miroflex on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?

Post by shooter » Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:59 pm

I agree with two rivers and timmies comments above.

re: pointed tip comment from abhijeet:

Hornaday have produced the "pointed" leverevolution ammo. to improve the BC and accuracy. The "pointed" part is very soft plastic which is not hard enough to set the primer off. Those who haven’t used it say its no good as 30-30 and pointed ammo etc. Those who have used it swear by the accuracy.

Its not available in the uk so i ordered some from the US. My scope doesn’t have a good relief so i flinch every time i use so cant yet commence on the accuracy however I have handled the ammo and the tip is really soft, not like the hard ballistic tips on other ammo. I have shot a couple of boxes till date but waiting to get a high relief scope so then would be able to accurately comment on groups etc.
However it is extensively sold in the us. I did a bit of research before buying it and all users have been satisfied with the performance.

Go for a 30-30 its a good calibre and accounted for more game in America than all other calibres. the action is proven through the years and withstands abuse well.

Safarigent has seen it and another member here has shot it with me.
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Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?

Post by miroflex » Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:08 pm

dr.jayakumar wrote:both are useless in india
regards
dr.jk
Dear Doctor,

I find it difficult to agree with you. Surely any weapon is better than none.

Regards.
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Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?

Post by miroflex » Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:32 pm

shooter wrote:I agree with two rivers and timmies comments above. ...

Go for a 30-30 its a good calibre and accounted for more game in america than all other calibres. the action is proven through the years and withstands abuse well. ...
Hello Shooter,

Thank you for your advice. I share the high opinion in which you hold the thirty thirty cartridge. It has a universal and timeless appeal. It has been popular in India also.

I have found that the lighter and medium bores of rifles have seen heavier use in India than the bigger bores. The latter are therefore easier to find in good condition. I have, however, seen some rifles in .30-30 calibre and will extend my search further.

Regards.
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Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?

Post by timmy » Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:07 pm

Personally and for practical reasons, I think shooter's points have a great deal of merit. For defending a farm, I think a .30-30 would be adequate. Power-wise, it is a bit more powerful than the 7.62x39. Over longer range, it has a round nose bullet that limits effective long range shooting with iron sights (say, beyond 200 yards), but the Winchester M1894 is compact, quick-handling, fairly powerful, widely available -- in short, a good choice.

One limitation might be mounting a scope, if you need one. A Marlin 336 mounts a scope easily, but I don't know if they are widely available in India.

In short, I think a Winchester M1894 is a very good choice. You certainly could do much worse.
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Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?

Post by miroflex » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:49 pm

Skyman wrote:That's what i read, written by men who had used them.Apparently there is nothing like a smooth repeater in a medium caliber, but in larger calibers there might be some difficulty with the action as the rifle ages.
Microflex himself said the action is sticky.That is why.
Skyman,

I did not say that the action was sticky. I said it was "nice and tight" and "rather stiff although quite positive" as you may see from extracts of my posts below. That is not the same thing as sticky.

Moreover my comments were about the double rifle and not about any of the lever action repeaters. In fact, I had not handled any of the Model 1895s till recently, when I saw one of them. Two are yet to be seen.
miroflex wrote: I found the action of the double barrel rifle rather stiff although quite positive.
miroflex wrote: The double rifle is so worn on the outside that the makers name is almost indecipherable. The action is however nice and tight. The dealer says that the rifle came to him in this condition and he has not tightened the action. This indicates that the rifle is worn from being carried around rather than from being fired.
I regard the tightness of the action as a positive sign indicating, apart from being the result of the lubricants having dried up, low to moderate use. With cleaning, lubrication and adjustment, the double rifle should perform well.

Regards.
Last edited by miroflex on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?

Post by Skyman » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:11 pm

An error on my part, thanks.
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Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?

Post by miroflex » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:06 pm

TwoRivers wrote:
Skyman wrote:That's what i read, written by men who had used them.Apparently there is nothing like a smooth repeater in a medium caliber, but in larger calibers there might be some difficulty with the action as the rifle ages.
Microflex himself said the action is sticky.That is why.
"Aging" does not affect rifle actions, regardless of type. If an action is sticky, it's most like due to dried up oil and dust. Having said that, the Winchester M1895 is probably, due to its size, the least "slick" of the Browning designed lever actions by Winchester. The M94/M95 type action is not as smooth as the M86/M92, and M73, type actions to begin with.
miroflex wrote: Skyman,

I did not say that the action was sticky. I said it was "nice and tight" and "rather stiff although quite positive" as you may see from extracts of my posts below. That is not the same thing as sticky.

Moreover my comments were about the double rifle and not about any of the lever action repeaters. In fact, I had not handled any of the Model 1895s till recently, when I saw one of them. Two are yet to be seen.
miroflex wrote: I found the action of the double barrel rifle rather stiff although quite positive.
miroflex wrote: The double rifle is so worn on the outside that the makers name is almost indecipherable. The action is however nice and tight. The dealer says that the rifle came to him in this condition and he has not tightened the action. This indicates that the rifle is worn from being carried around rather than from being fired.
miroflex wrote: I regard the tightness of the action as a positive sign indicating, apart from being the result of the lubricants having dried up, low to moderate use. With cleaning, lubrication and adjustment, the double rifle should perform well.

Regards.
Two Rivers,

As I have mentioned in my above post in reply to Skyman, I was not referring to the action of the Model 1895 but to that of the double rifle. Moreover, I had said that the action was "nice and tight" and "rather stiff although quite positive".

The stiffness could be partly due to the lubricants in the action having dried up. It could also be due to the effort required to cock the action, the rifle being a hammerless one. I am inclined to think, from the tightness of the action, that the double rifle has not seen much use. The external surfaces are worn from the weapon having been carried around extensively.

I am inclined to go by your advice and buy the double rifle in view of the ease and quickness of loading and reloading. I am, however, tempted by the dealer's description of one of the Model 1895s being in a ninety eight per cent of its original condition. I would certainly like to see it even if I don't buy it.

Thanks for your contributions to this thread and regards.
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Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?

Post by TwoRivers » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:05 am

Miroflex: Good choice. But since accuracy has more than once been mentioned in this thread; with doubles that's another and different issue. But for your stated purpose, I would hang on the IOF .315 as the best choice. There you could keep another magazine, or two, loaded (correctly!) and ready, for all the firepower you may ever need.

Was not referring to your posts, or to the M1895s, but to Skyman's remarks with regard to "stickiness".

As to the double, both the Belgians and the French built quite a few in caliber .405 Winchester. It must have been a popular caliber in the Belgian and French colonies. I have never come across a British built double .405, though some were built on the Lee bolt action. My introduction to the .405 was by way of a British-restocked M1895 and a Lee, both of which had made their way to Afghanistan from Kashmir in 1948.

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Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?

Post by miroflex » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:09 pm

timmy wrote:Miroflex, yes sir, I think you are right: each has its own trade offs.

Please don't get me wrong: I love the M1895. I love almost everything Browning designed, but the M1895 is one of the mo complex and intriguing guns he designed. But it is a long action, and you will see that there's a long throw to the lever when firing off a number of rounds. The Tsarists bought them because they needed guns, and the fact that the M1895 held up under that sort of use speaks very well for it. But that sort of trench warfare isn't quite the same as what you are looking to do.

On the other hand, the double has issues, as well. I've never owned a double rifle. I have a double hammerless shotgun and keep it stored with snapcaps, so that the hammers are not cocked all the time. Maybe that's silly of me. The gun is quite old and was probably stored for many decades with cocked hammers. Besides, storing a double empty or with snap caps is not the sort of thing that makes for a quick, ready defense weapon. And if it is kept loaded and cocked, the safety on mine is certainly not safe. The double you are looking at may not have that problem. The half cock on the Winchester would be preferable to some double safeties that prevent an accidental firing of a cocked gun, I think.

Yes, these two choices are not to be rejected immediately, but they aren't ideal.

A Winchester M1894 in .30-30 is a lot lighter and handier. I don't know how easy it is to get .30-30 in India, but it seems to be fairly available world wide.

I can see why you are scratching your head over this.
Timmy Sir,

I too am intrigued by the curious machinery that comprises the action of the Model 1895 Winchester. The Model 1894 is an equally impressive piece of machinery. I agree that the 1895 action has a long throw which renders it slightly slow to operate. It can provide five well spaced shots but is difficult if not impossible to operate from a prone position. This is also true of the double rifle. It is only bolt actions that can be operated easily even when lying on the ground.

I agree that for reasons of safety it would be advisable to keep the Winchester as well as the double rifle with the chambers empty. Even if the double rifle is stored empty, it can be loaded quickly, perhaps as quickly as levering a round into an empty chamber of a Model 1895 or a Model 1894 Winchester.

Rifles in .30-30 calibre are occasionally available for sale in India but do not come on the market as frequently as .405s. The latter have lost their popularity with the ban on hunting or shikar and the increaing cost of cartridges. The .405s are therefore coming up for sale more often.

One reason why I am inclined towards the .405 is that I may be called upon to deal with a marauding wild boar or some other equally large animal for which a .30-30 may be on the lighter side. Another aspect I have to deal with is that most .30-30s available on the market have seen heavier use than comparable .405s.

Nevertheless, I have been looking at .30-30s. Also at .250-3000 Savage Model 1899s. Cartridges for these last are difficult to obtain and costly. The rifles themselves are reasonably priced. Some .32-40 Winchesters are also the market, including a single shot in Martini action by Westley Richards.

I have a fondness for lever action Winchesters from having grown up with a .44-40 in the house and from reading cowboy stories in childhood. If I was not restricted by the three weapon limit my task would have been easier.
Last edited by miroflex on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Lever Action or Double Rifle?

Post by xl_target » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:55 pm

It can provide five well spaced shots but is difficult if not impossible to operate from a prone position. This is also true of the double rifle. It is only bolt actions that can be operated easily even when lying on the ground.
Miroflex,
I would like to respectfully disagree with you on this, at least concerning the lever action.

Image
Image
(image from here)
If one is in the proper prone position for firing a rifle, using either the straight leg or the cocked leg method, there should be plenty of clearance to operate the lever. One arm supports the front of the rifle and the other operates the trigger and the bolt/lever.

It could only be a problem if you are really low to the ground and are resting the front of the rifle on a rest of some kind. You might not have clearance to run the lever in this situation. In this position, one simply turns the rifle ninety degrees sideways (to the left if you are a right handed shooter) and operates the lever. Granted, a bolt is going to always be simpler to operate in the prone position but it is not that much of a chore to operate a lever in prone.

Also, please note that I am not trying to influence your selection of the type of rifle. I am merely pointing out that I don't agree with one particular observation that you made on operating one particular type of rifle.
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