My wonderful evening

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xl_target
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Re: My wonderful evening

Post by xl_target » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:31 am

Unfortunately in India, traditional classical art forms were a prerogative of the ruling classes and the rich to a large extent.They were largely limited to temples or royal courts. Ordinary people were more exposed to folk arts. Though things changed a great deal post Independence, the cinema and the TV later took over than these traditional art forms. Hence they remained a very cultivated/acquired taste.They have never been popular among large segments of population. Attempts were/have been made to make them popular but the results have been not very optimistic. JMHO. I myself have little patience for traditional classical dance forms and music. My sister was a trained Bharatanatyam and Kuchipudi dancer(She was very good)) in her earlier years and learnt veena too. She moved away from them for various reasons.Having said that, I do not think that these dance/art forms are endangered as they are determinedly taken up, practised and propagated by a sizeable number of people.They just may not become really mainstream.That does not diminish their value are richness.
Ah Vikram, you have distilled the matter down to just a few sentences.
You were able to express to Tim exactly what I was trying to say.

See Tim, when he says "I myself have little patience for traditional classical dance forms and music" that's exactly how I feel.

Actually, I was exposed to some of this. When growing up, only the big cities had TV, each town had one station. So in Bombay, you got to watch what the Government run station aired (in Marathi, Hindi and English, depending on the program). In Calcutta, you got to watch what the Calcutta station put on (in Bengali, Hindi and English). They would try and give you healthy doses of culture. Bharatnatyam performances were definitely considered culture. All the kids would groan when they came on. An aunt of mine also took Bharatnatyam lessons and we would go to the performances.
My mother was a huge fan of Hollywood musicals. In fact music played constantly in our house. That is probably where my distaste for musicals (in any language) started.
Lolllzz XL, you are being too Cynical.
I think you're correct, Moin, it's time to lighten up. I actually had a very good, if not excellent, childhood in India.
I had traveled the length and breadth of the country by the time I was 19, some of it alone. There wasn't a single time when I was travelling that I felt scared or threatened.
We had friends and relatives in almost every major city and bunking at someone's house for a couple of days while passing through was what you did. In fact they would have been upset if you tried to skip out on their hospitality. We looked at the future with very rose colored glasses and a lot of the time the optimistic view was justified. I was pretty young when we celebrated 25 years of Independence but I remember the feeling of Euphoria. Many felt that there wasn't anything we couldn't accomplish as a country.

When I go to see a movie, whether it is Hollywood or Bollywood, I want to be entertained. Make me laugh, involve me in the story and wow me with your cinematic genius but just don't bore me. Remember Star Wars? When it was first released, it was a revelation. Going back and watching it today, it seems so ordinary but when it came out it was something else. The story, the effects, the newness of the 70mm format's large screen and the overwhelming sound system in stereo! There were movies like the Guns of Navarone, Where Eagles Dare, Saturday Nigh Fever (ya, I know... but it was a big hit in the day), Rocky, Clint Eastwood's spaghetti westerns, etc. . There was nothing even remotely close coming out of Bollywood at the time. This in part has probably colored my perception of Bollywood. Take a look at some of the movies released by Hollywood in the late seventies and you'll see my point.
“Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense” — Winston Churchill, Oct 29, 1941

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Sakobav
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Re: My wonderful evening

Post by Sakobav » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:50 am

Agree with XL - leave it to Vikkers to summarize things

Moin - XL isnt being too cynical. One thing very challenging about Indian music and dances etc is that unlike the western music its not written but vocal. It takes quite a bit of practice under a Guru to master it. With demise of raja and nawabs this is one craft which fared the worst. For example Patiala Gharana all but gone ( especially since Patiala own state troopers chased them away during partition (sic) - to their credit they did save Ghalib during 1857 in Delhi). I have never seen Indian classical music on idiot box even those ad nausea best musician idol kind of competitions on TV - the classical songs are equated to old Hindi Songs!! and that fusion music which typically is copy of western tunes ( Bhapi lahiri) !! Indian music industry unlike any where in the world is controlled by Bollywood - the main aim is to become playback singer there are no independent bands like Silk route etc any more !!

Its also a fact that best hindi movies were made till late sixties like you mentioned in era of Guru Datt, Mother India, SD Burman era! or recently when more sensible folks came up.
Personally I see more raw musical talent in Pakistan then in India. Atleast for punjabi songs just compare their Coke studio wit Indians.

Coming back to music why would Bismillah Khan die in penury - India needs nurture and provide more exposure on TV for classical music. Just listen to Bhade Ghulam ali Khan from Patiala Gharana
he didnt learn this over night - who in contemporary music world do you think can sing close to these folks - I mean folks in music industry Shreya et al?

In general I am also bit concerned that Indians rarely tolerate any negative comments or even dare to by cynical about their country ! Its sign of misplaced nationalism and chauvinism which is detrimental..
or as Faiz said bhol ke lab azaad hein tere


Trivia what is common link between famous Sarabhai dance family and INA's Rani Jhansi Brigade member?

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Re: My wonderful evening

Post by hvj1 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:58 am

Thanks Timmy for a very refreshing post/thread.

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Re: My wonderful evening

Post by Moin. » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:25 am

Vikram wrote:Timmy,

I am greatly pleased that you had a great evening and even managed to have a conversation with the lady.

Unfortunately in India, traditional classical art forms were a prerogative of the ruling classes and the rich to a large extent.They were largely limited to temples or royal courts. Ordinary people were more exposed to folk arts. Though things changed a great deal post Independence, the cinema and the TV later took over than these traditional art forms. Hence they remained a very cultivated/acquired taste.They have never been popular among large segments of population. Attempts were/have been made to make them popular but the results have been not very optimistic. JMHO. I myself have little patience for traditional classical dance forms and music. My sister was a trained Bharatanatyam and Kuchipudi dancer(She was very good)) in her earlier years and learnt veena too. She moved away from them for various reasons.Having said that, I do not think that these dance/art forms are endangered as they are determinedly taken up, practised and propagated by a sizeable number of people.They just may not become really mainstream.That does not diminish their value are richness.

@Briha, I first saw Pandit Hariprasad Chaurasia in Hyderabad nearly 18 years ago.That was a mesmerising performance.I always liked his music. And he is such a humble and gentle soul.None of the artistic arrogance in him, unlike some of the other maestros.He repeatedly obliged almost all the requests of his audience and he played them all! Then, I had the opportunity to watch him play at the University of Warwick in UK. This time, I could go to the green room and meet him in person and talk to him after the show.He was again the same humble and gentle soul.It was a privilege that I cherish.

He and that great rock-flautist,Jethro Tull fame, Ian Anderson performed together and produced some great music.

http://www.hindu.com/mag/2004/02/08/sto ... 120500.htm


Best-
Vikram

Quite agree with you Vikram, Classical Dance and Music's quite an acquired taste. But there has been quite a renewed interest lately. I was recently to a Pandit Jasraj Concert with a friend who's learning classical vocal, the majorty of the crowd was in their twent)'s and thirty's. Was painful for me though sitting there the entire time,(only sat there becuase of this pretty lady friend :)) I had no clue to what wa going on the stage.I guess you need to have some understanding to appreciate Classical Arts, like you said the luxury for a priviliged few. Rest have to run around helter skelter worrying about their daily bread.


Best
Moin.
In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. Camus

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Re: My wonderful evening

Post by Moin. » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:45 am

quote="xl_target"]
Lolllzz XL, you are being too Cynical.
I think you're correct, Moin, it's time to lighten up. I actually had a very good, if not excellent, childhood in India.
I had traveled the length and breadth of the country by the time I was 19, some of it alone. There wasn't a single time when I was travelling that I felt scared or threatened.
We had friends and relatives in almost every major city and bunking at someone's house for a couple of days while passing through was what you did. In fact they would have been upset if you tried to skip out on their hospitality. We looked at the future with very rose colored glasses and a lot of the time the optimistic view was justified. I was pretty young when we celebrated 25 years of Independence but I remember the feeling of Euphoria. Many felt that there wasn't anything we couldn't accomplish as a country.

When I go to see a movie, whether it is Hollywood or Bollywood, I want to be entertained. Make me laugh, involve me in the story and wow me with your cinematic genius but just don't bore me. Remember Star Wars? When it was first released, it was a revelation. Going back and watching it today, it seems so ordinary but when it came out it was something else. The story, the effects, the newness of the 70mm format's large screen and the overwhelming sound system in stereo! There were movies like the Guns of Navarone, Where Eagles Dare, Saturday Nigh Fever (ya, I know... but it was a big hit in the day), Rocky, Clint Eastwood's spaghetti westerns, etc. . There was nothing even remotely close coming out of Bollywood at the time. This in part has probably colored my perception of Bollywood. Take a look at some of the movies released by Hollywood in the late seventies and you'll see my point.
You know XL, probably very little has changed.You can still travel the length and the breadth of the country without feeling scared and threatened. You will still find that warmth and hospitality even with total strangers. That's what is still great about this country is we value relationship. We don't leave our parents when we turn 18, we take care of them till their last breath. We still offer help to total strangers, TELL ME Honestly, can you find this anywhere in the western world.

And I guess, every generation says things were best in their time, I say this all the time I've grown up playing Gulli Cricket, Kanche etc and the kids these days are into X Box, Play Stations and God Knows what.I still fondly remember the WWF with the Undertaker, Hitman Heart Shawn Michels etc.


Lollz Saturday Night Fever hahaha You can't be serious. But yes some very good Bollywood Movies have come out in the 60's and 70's.and I mean very good film making and In mainstream cinema not just the song and dance routine.Anand, Kabhi Kabhi, Aandi and so so many. How can you forget these movies XL.
In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. Camus

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Re: My wonderful evening

Post by Moin. » Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:24 pm

ngrewal wrote:Agree with XL - leave it to Vikkers to summarize things

Moin - XL isnt being too cynical. One thing very challenging about Indian music and dances etc is that unlike the western music its not written but vocal. It takes quite a bit of practice under a Guru to master it. With demise of raja and nawabs this is one craft which fared the worst. For example Patiala Gharana all but gone ( especially since Patiala own state troopers chased them away during partition (sic) - to their credit they did save Ghalib during 1857 in Delhi). I have never seen Indian classical music on idiot box even those ad nausea best musician idol kind of competitions on TV - the classical songs are equated to old Hindi Songs!! and that fusion music which typically is copy of western tunes ( Bhapi lahiri) !! Indian music industry unlike any where in the world is controlled by Bollywood - the main aim is to become playback singer there are no independent bands like Silk route etc any more !!

Its also a fact that best hindi movies were made till late sixties like you mentioned in era of Guru Datt, Mother India, SD Burman era! or recently when more sensible folks came up.
Personally I see more raw musical talent in Pakistan then in India. Atleast for punjabi songs just compare their Coke studio wit Indians.

Coming back to music why would Bismillah Khan die in penury - India needs nurture and provide more exposure on TV for classical music. Just listen to Bhade Ghulam ali Khan from Patiala Gharana
he didnt learn this over night - who in contemporary music world do you think can sing close to these folks - I mean folks in music industry Shreya et al?

In general I am also bit concerned that Indians rarely tolerate any negative comments or even dare to by cynical about their country ! Its sign of misplaced nationalism and chauvinism which is detrimental..
or as Faiz said bhol ke lab azaad hein tere


Trivia what is common link between famous Sarabhai dance family and INA's Rani Jhansi Brigade member?

Nahin Grewal Sahab, beg to diFfer. All countries like people have their own imperfections and inadequacies. I'm sure there's corruption, Babudom. Poverty etc but there are many facets in India which are unique to this part of the world and that we've still managed to preserve somehow, what's little left of it. This is not misplaced patriotism, we're getting there, slowly but steadily, we still care about our past, about who we are while looking towards what the future holds for us.

Are things all utopian in America or Europe or where ever you may be.

I'm a big fan of Faiz Ahmed Faiz too Grewalsahab, but I'll quote Allama Iqbal here

Sare Jahan se accha Hindustan hamara, hum Bulbulen hai iski, yeh gulsitan hamara :)


Best
Moin.
In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. Camus

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Re: My wonderful evening

Post by xl_target » Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:52 pm

Moin. wrote:
You know XL, probably very little has changed.You can still travel the length and the breadth of the country without feeling scared and threatened. You will still find that warmth and hospitality even with total strangers. That's what is still great about this country is we value relationship. We don't leave our parents when we turn 18, we take care of them till their last breath.
I hadn't intended to say that it was better when I was young as I don't what it is like today. I just meant that I probably shouldn't be too critical. I received one of the world's best high school educations in Indian schools. When I attended college here, apart from my Electronics classes, I had already covered everything I was taught including and up to College Calculus II, World History, World Geography, English Language, English Literature, Physics, Chemistry and Biology. When I took my TOEFL (Test of English as a Foreign Language) test at the American embassy in Nigeria I was way above any of the local people applying but I was just an average student in India. Still, there are things here that I can't get in India now. One is not having to deal with a stifling bureaucracy that pervades so much of an Indian's life. Another is the freedom to own as many firearms as I can afford. Shooting (hunting and fishing are not such a big part of my life now but they used to be) is still a big part of my life.
We still offer help to total strangers, TELL ME Honestly, can you find this anywhere in the western world.
You will definitely find that here in rural Minnesota (you will find that all over, in rural areas of the country). I've got stories of strangers going above and beyond the call of duty to help me out when I've needed it. The people here are amazingly nice. It's probably a little different in the bigger cities though. Look at how much hospitality Mark and his family lavished on us and we had never met before. Granted, we weren't total strangers but still, they took us into their home and fed us and entertained us. I think Navi can attest to that and Abhijit too. I've become a de facto member of so many families, I have a hard time sending out enough Christmas cards. :)
I've found that people are surprisingly much the same no matter where they live. You've got bad eggs and good eggs everywhere. I even found this to be true when I was in Africa. While we Indians are famous for our hospitality, we don't have a lock on it.

We've pulled Tim's thread way off topic so we should continue this discussion elsewhere. :)
“Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense” — Winston Churchill, Oct 29, 1941

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