12 bore double barrel shotgun.

[mehulkamdar]

Harnihal,

I have added the words "Courtesy www.internetgunclub.com " to your post. I hope you don't mind. As Sam points out, this is Copyrighted information and this little acknowledgement is enough to acknowledge the courtesy of the IGC when posting information from there.

"Tiger" from the IGC is indeed a very pleasant man and his database is the best in the world, an exercise that is constantly being updated and added to - the new section on French and Belgian gunmakers that is being put together as I type this promises to be another boon to members there.

I hope to talk to Abhijeet when he is back about affiliating with the Internet Gun Club and with the Nitro Express forums. MAny of our members would be able to tap into some of the world's finest expertise by this affiliation if all goes well.

Cheers,

Mehul

[John]

Tiger, Mehul,

A little bird told us about this, but there's no problem. Tiger mentioned internetgunclub.com and that's all we ask. However, his adoption of the user name "Tiger" is !! I bagged that when the dinosaurs ruled the earth! "Tiger Jnr" or "Tiger minimus" I wouldn't have objected to; I guess I'll just have to put up with it. Come to think of it, the more people with the name Tiger and talking tiger, the better! Maybe it would help the Indian politicians stop thinking about votes and start doing something about wildlife preservation.

I feel like an idiot because Horace Soley is in our database, but on seeing the name Horace & Soley my memory told me there was no such partnership. Computers never make mistakes! I am most grateful for the lead to the Irish Parliament, I'll have a long look at that. At first sight it seems Soley ran off with the deposit!

Very happy to talk about affiliation or whatever, please let us know what you have in mind.

[mehulkamdar]

Hello John,

Good to see you here. You'll find many members here who love old British guns and own some of them. I'll draft an e-mail and send it to you and Abhijeet Singh who owns Indiansforguns and, hopefully, we could have an affiliation between this very new but enthusiastic club and the IGC - I keep asking members here to register on the IGC though some of them are somewhat shy. I am sure that your presence and Grumpy's (he is among the most popular members here as oyu might know) would bring the groups closer. There are many things that members here could learn from a forum like the IGC and I shall look forward to bringing people on both groups closer.

Cheers,

Mehul

[Grumpy]

Mack The Knife, I thought the problem in India is that it is extremely difficult to import new guns ? How are you going to find an H&R with a rifled choke ? All the older guns had fixed chokes - and none had a fixed rifled `choke`.

[Mack The Knife]

Mack The Knife, I thought the problem in India is that it is extremely difficult to import new guns ? How are you going to find an H&R with a rifled choke ? All the older guns had fixed chokes - and none had a fixed rifled `choke`.

Morning Grumpy!

There is no question of importing one.

Mehul tipped me off to a rifled choked single barrel H&R lying in a gun shop in Madras.

I should have more details in the coming week.

Mack The Knife

[mehulkamdar]

John,

H&R sold single barrel guns with "Paradox" type rifling in India and I have tipped Mack The Knife to two that are on sale. Funnily, I have never seen one in the USA though they must have sold some here. The H&R smoothbores sell at gun shows for $ 80 to 100 all the time, though the only ones I have seen over here are smoothbores.

I wonder if there were any cheap British single bores like these?

Mehul

[Young Tiger]

John/Mehul/sam

I am sorry for the late reply i was not in town for couple of days and wow alot has been going on with username since then lol ,I Did'nt knew about "Tiger" John taking the Tiger username ,i am registered at IGC as "young tiger" ,i am sorry for copying the IGC page,Thank you so much for adding those words mehul, As far as question about the username i would be happy with "Young Tiger" here aswell ,i am sending to you my password as private message to you john you can change information and have the username ,i wont be happy with this username if someone else is not very happy about it lol.

Take care!

[Mack The Knife]

Good man! Errr...I meant, good tiger!

[John]

Hi Tiger,

You are a gentleman of the first water, but how could I possibly accept such generosity? You must continue being Tiger here, I will be Tiger there and John here

Interestingly, on the IGC I see we have (having now searched for it!), Tiger (me), Young Tiger (you) also Bengaltiger (in India) and Tiger Cub (in England)!

Now, enough waffle: I know of no English maker who put rifled chokes in a single barrel gun but that is not to say someone didn't do it, and the Americans did! But it doesn't make a lot of sense! If using the gun for defence (say 1875-1975) only an idiot would buy a good quality single barrel gun rather than a cheap double barrelled gun which, let's face it, would be used only occasionally. Nobody would be happy to rely on one barrel (and there wouldn't be time to use a three barrelled gun!). If someone was buying a gun and shooting for the pot then they'd either buy a smooth bored shotgun or they'd buy a rifle. The Cape rifle was never as popular in India as it was in Africa.

The holy grail was a gun which was cheap to produce and could be used for everything, and it was a 12 bore which could fire a perfect pattern and also fire a bullet which would spin in flight - to give perfest accuracy. The Paradox was expensive, as were the Explora and the little Faunetta, so gunmakers tried to change the bullet rather than the gun. Lyon & Lyon's "lethal Ball" didn't spin and Manton's "Contractile Bullet" didn't spin either. Both were accurate at the relatively short ranges they were used at but, as usual, people wanted. R B Rodda & Co came up with their "Rotax" bullet. I've never seen a Rotax bullet but it was a "cylinder" of lead (a sort of super soft-nose) with "vanes" or "rifling" on the inside and a steel disc at the rear which fell away in the first few yards of flight. If anyone comes across one I'd pay a small fortune for it!

So Mack The Knife, why not get an ordinary double shotgun with open chokes in both barrels, and buy solid slug cartridges (if you can) or mould your own and reload ordinary shot cartridges with them, or even try to make a mould for a Rotax bullet? Take great care, shove in a thin felt (not fibre) wad under the bullet cut up your girl friend's mother's hat), and make sure the bullet diameter doesn't exceed the internal diameter of the barrel. I can get (well, I did on one afternoon!) a 6 inch group at 100 yards using both plain solid slugs and some fancy French solid slugs. I also used both to prune trees that were too high for my ladder! The solid slugs were twice the weight, only they could take down a three inch branch -the French ones couldn't!

[Mack The Knife]

So Mack The Knife, why not get an ordinary double shotgun with open chokes in both barrels, and buy solid slug cartridges (if you can) or mould your own and reload ordinary shot cartridges with them, or even try to make a mould for a Rotax bullet? Take great care, shove in a thin felt (not fibre) wad under the bullet cut up your girl friend's mother's hat), and make sure the bullet diameter doesn't exceed the internal diameter of the barrel. I can get (well, I did on one afternoon!) a 6 inch group at 100 yards using both plain solid slugs and some fancy French solid slugs. I also used both to prune trees that were too high for my ladder! The solid slugs were twice the weight, only they could take down a three inch branch -the French ones couldn't!

Hello John,

Firstly, thanks for a very informative post.

Due to the shoe string budget, the chances of buying an ordinary SxS shotty are far higher than one with a rifled choke. I am also quite comfortable with the idea of using ball if need be. In short, I am not too fussy or more to the point I cannot afford to be too choosy.

You advice going for an open choke and rightly so but I am unsure what you mean by 'open'. Are you refering to a cylinder choke?

What are your views on having a constriction that would give me Improved Choke type patterns at the regulation 40 yards? This would be for use with ball/slug and shot.

Mack The Knife

[mehulkamdar]

John,

Ball loadings are available in India with no trouble at all and Indians don;t require a firearms license for them like some countries that distinguish between shotgun and rifled arms do. The Harrington and RIchardson single barrel guns (all as heavy as a Lee Enfield service rifle or more) were amde as cheap farmers' guns so that they could be used to protect crops with shot or ball as the farmer required. Most vermin (pigs for the major part) are shot at ranges of 30 yards or less in India and these old guns seem to work despite their having been in use for a half century.

I know that I sound like a perfect Philistine defending these guns to the owner of a website that carries data on some of the finest guns ever built, but then I have used a Savage-Stevens Side by Side for many years with good results under precisely these conditions. And Sassenach that I am to boot, I drink cheap Scotch whiskies and Irish whiskey as well.

Now before Mack The Knife and Asif petition Abhijeet that I am unfit to be a moderator because of my decidedly barbaric tastes, I'll request you to suggest what would be a good choice under these circumstances. Mack The Knife has an A-5 Browning that his father in law wants him to have but apparently it is in poor shape and he is worried about shooting it. I wish he would work outside India for a year and then go back with a gun (the only way he could do that under Indian law at the moment) but then, again, I digress...

Harnihal,

Good to see you here as the adult tiger after being a young tiger on the IGC. As we all agree, we need many more tigers in the world and especially in India. Cheers and do post often,

Mehul

[Mack The Knife]

[quote="mehulkamdar"]Now before Mack The Knife and Asif petition Abhijeet that I am unfit to be a moderator because of my decidedly barbaric tastes
[quote]

And rightly so. Off with his 'ed!

More than the condition of the A5, the fact that it requires getting a Prohibited Bore licence is what really puts me off. I'd like nothing more than to work on that gun and get it back to scratch.

Mack The Knife

[Young Tiger]

Hello Mack The Knife/mehul/John

John ,I wont believe your a friend until you accept the offer LOL

I already registered myself as "Young Tiger" Here

So Guys this is my last message as "Tiger"
Cheers!

[Mack The Knife]

Admin may have to delete the 'Tiger' account before John can don his new avatar....I think. As if I know anything about computers.

Mack The Knife

[Grumpy]

I`m getting confused as heck here now: I am John; ( John ) Tiger is Tiger; Young Tiger is Tiger.............Tell you what, how about one of you changing your user name to `Moggy` ! Ere Tiger .... ( John ) have you got a bit of a paunch ? If so you could be `Bagpuss` - he had Tiger stripes......and only stayed awake for five minutes at a time !
Sounds like that Rodda rifled slug was a near copy of the Brenneke - except that the Brennekes don`t have a detachable disk.
Can you buy Brenneke slugs in India Mack The Knife ? Being designed to spin they don`t need a rifled - or partly rifled - barrel. Several manufacturers have their own versions now as the design is well out of patent protection. They are surprisingly accurate and will achieve 6 inch or better groups at 100 yards.
Yes, `open` chokes are of minimal constriction - Cylinder to 1/4 ( or `Improved` in American parlance. ) `Tight` chokes are the opposite - being roughly 3/4 to Super Full. Most slugs can be used up to about 1/4 choke.
Foster or ball type slugs are hopelessly inaccurate unless you have a fully rifled barrel which means that they are effectively limited to about 30 yards range......and won`t group even at that limited range.
Single barrel shotguns are cheap in the UK because no-one wants them. In auction you can pick them up from a fiver upwards. They`re invariably of pretty poor quality compared to a double and tend to handle rather badly as well. The first time you miss because of having no second shot you`ll regret buying a single barrel.
Browning A5s are tough ! Being mechanical - recoil - operated there`s very little to go wrong in them. The barrel walls are thick so a bit of pitting isn`t a problem. I`ve seen and used A5s that are 70 - or more - years old, have fired thousands upon thousands of shots and haven`t been oiled in donkeys years yet they still work. Even when they`re loose and rattley they still shoot safely. Mind you, they`re pretty clanky when new................... The recoil is rather noticeable ( make sure you have a hefty rubber pad on the butt ) and the noise they make is distinctive ( "Call-ANK"! ) but they are very reliable.