Help required in buying .30 mauser broomstick pistol

[nagarifle]

one may say that the metallurgy is far better 100 years ago, one would have to agree that 100 years ago it was better then 150 years ago would not one.

it is hard for me, who is not experienced in metallurgy to suggest that a firearm made 100 years or more is sound in every form and will not blow up one face if used on everyday bases.

some firearms which are old, tend to be a display items and may get fired once in a blue moon. which in it self does no harm but to say that its ok to it fire once a week 100 shots or so, is in my opinion advising someone to commit suicide.

As much as i love the broomhandle i will be very very careful to use it once a week for 30 or so shots, unless i had it checked out with metal expert and not a mantel experts who claim it ok.

As for the H&H etc which are over 100 years, has any one seen them being fired every sunday morning shoot?
many guns are of high value in the west and else where which if i may add is mostly for display and investment.
yes i would drool over it, but will not go out on shoot every eve before the high noon tea.

i believe one needs to have ones stinky thinking checked up pretty fast as it may lead to some one with lose of half a face.

As others have said in brief play safe live long.

no gunsmith can make a metal pipe better regardless of how good he/she is or either an Indian or moonie.

[goodboy_mentor]

Regardless whether it is .30 Mauser broomstick or any other second hand firearm, one needs to be cautious and not be carried away by its "imported" label. There are plenty of gunsmiths in this country who can do very good "restorative" work that cannot be very easily ascertained. I would prefer not to comment on the extent of such "restorative" work that is done. I am not saying that every "imported" firearm has been "restored". But the fact cannot be ignored that due to prevailing extortionate prices of "imported" firearms, thanks to import restriction, one can use his own commonsense and understand the things as to how lucrative is the "restoration" business.

[TC]

ear IFG'ians
After long ordeal ,My cousin got his liscense for buying pistol/Revolver of Non prohibited bore,and he is interested in buying a pistol or Revolver of foreign make(we termed all imported weapon as "ENGLISH " and we found this .30 mauser broomstick pistol at one of the gun dealer in gwalior he is having one webley Scott Revolver as well A series 4 inch barrel.Pistol was looking in good condition ,webleyscott was not available at that time but he assures that he will show us the weapon next time,Asking price for pistol is 6.5 lakhs while for webley scott it is 3.7, the dealer is saying that he will let us meet the owners of both weapon and he will take 25000 rs on deal.Mauser was looking fine but but we are not buying it only for looks.Kindly guide me that what we have to check to insure that weapon is worth cost 6.5 Lakhs.I am attaching the pics which I have taken but that time I was not carrying a good camera so I request you that what photographs shall i take so I can post if and seek advice of all gun gurus and does these weapons worth the price or how much shall we negotiate.My cousin is more biased toward pistol.

Dear sonyvecv. I read your post and felt that your cousin wants to buy a good handgun of foreign make and is more inclined to go for a pistol. Assuming that your cousin is looking for a handgun for self defence than I think he should buy a different pistol. The reasons being :
One ,cartridge for the Mauser is not easily available.
Two, the Mauser is not a small pistol that can be carried on person i.e. inside the pocket or in a standard belt holster without anyone noticing the huge bulge. It is not possible for any person to carry a bag or wear a rather big shoulder holster all day in the Indian climate.
.32 is not a very bad choice as far as self defence is concerned. The cartridge is locally made and even foreign ammo is easily available. If your cousin has 6.5 lakh to spend on a pistol then he could buy a .32 Llama .second generation pistol with ventilated rib at the same price from dealers in UP and MP. I checked the market rates last week because of personal reasons.
If your cousin is lucky then he can even get a Beretta Model 70 for the same price or maybe around 7 lakh.
The first generation Llama (without the rib) is going for 3 - 3.5 lakh.
My advice to you is look around and visit more shops. Don't be hasty while buying a weapon in India's second hand market. We are always here to help.

Cheers

TC

[TC]

Regardless whether it is .30 Mauser broomstick or any other second hand firearm, one needs to be cautious and not be carried away by its "imported" label. There are plenty of gunsmiths in this country who can do very good "restorative" work that cannot be very easily ascertained. I would prefer not to comment on the extent of such "restorative" work that is done. I am not saying that every "imported" firearm has been "restored". But the fact cannot be ignored that due to prevailing extortionate prices of "imported" firearms, thanks to import restriction, one can use his own commonsense and understand the things as to how lucrative is the "restoration" business.

I will give you just one example from many. Two years ago a young security guard came to a gunsmith in Kolkata when I was in the shop. The man brought out a .32 "Webley and Scott B series" revolver and said the hammer was too tight and he wanted it fine tuned. The gunsmith took the weapon, examined it and showed it to me. THE ENTIRE REVOLVER WAS A COPY and any expert could make out from the tell tale signs.
He asked the security guard where he had bought it from and at what price. The answer was "from a shop in Kanpur" for 1.8 lakh. The gunsmith returned the revolver to its owner and said, "Sorry I cant do the job."

Need I say more about restoration or should we start a thread on counterfeits ?

Naga and Mentor, to be very frank when I go through replies of some members in some of the threads these days I don't even feel like sharing any experience. We already have so much of it...

Cheers
TC

[miroflex]

Dear all,

The "broom handle", not "broomstick", Mauser is perhaps one of the earliest successful semi-automatic pistols and has seen extensive use throughout the world. It is a well designed, finely engineered product that has stood the test of time. The cartridge is a powerful one, a factor of great relevance in India, where many of the more powerful cartridges have been placed in the list of prohibited bores.

On the negative side, the weapon is difficult to carry in a concealed manner. It is also awkward and clumsy in use due to its size and shape. It has been overtaken by more modern weapons which are are more compact and easier to carry in a concealed manner and are also easier to bring into use. Cartridges for some of these are easier to obtain.

As far as metallurgy is concerned, there is no doubt that it has made great strides in the period of over a century since the Mauser was launched. Whether all relevant aspects of these advances have been incorporated in modern pistols such as the Ashani is a matter of debate.

The artificial scarcity created by import restrictions has driven the prices of handguns sky high in India and has limited the choice of arms and ammunition. In such a situation of limited choice, the "broom handle" Mauser may be the best available option for a particular buyer and his or her choice must be respected. Goverment has already restricted the choices available. Let us not restrict them further.

As a vintage car lover said:

One man's meat is another man's poison,
My favourite car is an Avions Voisin.

Regards to all.

[goodboy_mentor]

The "broom handle", not "broomstick"

Ha ha ha! thank you for correcting.

where many of the more powerful cartridges have been placed in the list of prohibited bores

I don't think any "more powerful" cartridges are in prohibited bore list. Prohibited bores or non prohibited bores has nothing to do with ballistics. Moreover so called prohibited bores are nothing but those listed in SCHEDULE -I category I(c) of Arms Rules 1962. I don't think SCHEDULE -I category I(c) of Arms Rules 1962 been changed. I have tried to explain this matter in detail here http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 28#p174447

[TC]

Miroflex
There is no restriction on Indian civilians owning .44 magnum, 41 magnum, .357 magnum, .40, or for that matter even .50 which is more powerful than 7.63X25 used by the C96. Question is, how many Indian gun dealers have any of these cartridges in stock, in what quantity and what is the retail price of each cartridge.
Asking someone to buy a weapon for which cartridges are available next door is not imposing restriction on his choice. It is a sincere effort to help him remain armed all the time, something the government quite apparently does not want any Indian to be.

On this thread my question to all members is : when was the last 7.63 X 25 cartridge directly sourced from a foreign manufacturer and imported into India ?

I don't have the answer. Please help.

TC

[miroflex]

where many of the more powerful cartridges have been placed in the list of prohibited bores

I don't think any "more powerful" cartridges are in prohibited bore list. Prohibited bores or non prohibited bores has nothing to do with ballistics.

I have not claimed that prohibited bores are based on the ballistic performance of the cartridges, It is nevertheless a fact that other things being equal, the services have tended to use more rather than less powerful cartridges. An exception may be the Metropolitan Police Force of London which was equipped with the .32 Webley and Scott pistol.

The .38, 9 mm and .45 ACP, all prohibited bores, are more powerful than the .32 ACP, a non prohibited bore. Arms and ammunition for many of the more powerful non prohibited bores, like the .357 and .44 magnums which are popular worldwide, are costly and difficult to obtain in India.

Regards.

[miroflex]

Miroflex
There is no restriction on Indian civilians owning .44 magnum, 41 magnum, .357 magnum, .40, or for that matter even .50 which is more powerful than 7.63X25 used by the C96. Question is, how many Indian gun dealers have any of these cartridges in stock, in what quantity and what is the retail price of each cartridge.l

I agree. That is precisely what I was trying to say. Arms and ammunition for most of the more powerful non prohibited bores is costly and difficult to obtain in India.

Asking someone to buy a weapon for which cartridges are available next door is not imposing restriction on his choice. It is a sincere effort to help him remain armed all the time, something the government quite apparently does not want any Indian to be.

Cartridges for the .30 Mauser may not be available with the shop next door but are stocked by many dealers. The .32 ACP while easier to obtain is a much less powerful cartridge than the .30 Mauser. The purchaser need not necessarily be involved in close range combat situations and may find it necessary to defend himself at longer ranges where the Mauser would be in its element.

On this thread my question to all members is : when was the last 7.63 X 25 cartridge directly sourced from a foreign manufacturer and imported into India ?

I don't have the answer. Please help.

TC

[/quote]

Dealers in ammunition may be able to answer this question.

Regards.

[hamiclar01]

The purchaser need not necessarily be involved in close range combat situations and may find it necessary to defend himself at longer ranges where the Mauser would be in its element.

I see. You mean self defence at 1km....
based on the sights that our overtly enthusiastic friend bowman points out

[Vineet]

Very few people in India who own well cared imported weapons from their family heirloom can only tell that metallurgy of companies like Mauser, Colt, Walther, CZ, Remington, Winchester, Beretta, BSA etc, 100 years back, was way ahead of Indian made weapons today. They know that it's not dangerous at all to fire them and that they won't blow up in their face.

People who try to judge metallurgy of imported weapons by merely looking at the second-hand crap that is available will dealers won't understand this.

Few lines from Abhijeet from his website http://www.abhijeetsingh.com/arms/

"I have a pistol in my collection which was manufactured circa 1942, and it still works as advertised. Find me another machine that still works about as well as the day it was made sixty two years ago, has detonated and contained a mini-explosive device many thousands of times, lasted through who knows what weather, endured rough handling and neglect, and travelled through at least two continents (it was made in U.S.A, for the Army)."

[miroflex]

The purchaser need not necessarily be involved in close range combat situations and may find it necessary to defend himself at longer ranges where the Mauser would be in its element.

I see. You mean self defence at 1km....
based on the sights that our overtly enthusiastic friend bowman points out

Winston Churchill successfully defended himself in the Battle of Omdurman ("The River War") and the Boer War with a Mauser. He certainly lived to tell the tale. QED.

Regards.

[Vineet]

The purchaser need not necessarily be involved in close range combat situations and may find it necessary to defend himself at longer ranges where the Mauser would be in its element.

I see. You mean self defence at 1km....
based on the sights that our overtly enthusiastic friend bowman points out

The sights graduated to 1000 meters on Mauser c-96 was put to attract buyers and had less to do with effective range of the pistol. As we all know even the .30-06 cartridge struggles at that range.

Miroflex did not say "self defense at 1 km". He said "self defence at longer ranges". Which might stand true, for someone like me, who live in a farmhouse in Punjab having no other home within 1 km radius. Someone living in a city may not need to fire in self defence for more than 20-25 yards but in farmhouses chances are that one may need to defend upto 100 or 200 yards.

[TC]

Cartridges for the .30 Mauser may not be available with the shop next door but are stocked by many dealers. The .32 ACP while easier to obtain is a much less powerful cartridge than the .30 Mauser. The purchaser need not necessarily be involved in close range combat situations and may find it necessary to defend himself at longer ranges where the Mauser would be in its element.

True but is there any guarantee that all those .30 ammo that you say "many dealer" stock will fire when the gun owner life is at stake ? I have seen dealers you are referring to polishing twenty year old ammo with fine sandpaper and then rubbing the cartidges with chalk dust and people buying them as "just imported" ones.

I have also seen many dealers you are referring to reloading old brass with powder, primer and bullets of questionable quality.

TC

[hamiclar01]

Winston Churchill successfully defended himself in the Battle of Omdurman ("The River War") and the Boer War with a Mauser. He certainly lived to tell the tale. QED.

QED????
But did he fire it? His survival may have to do with poor enemy marksmanship (the wikipedia entry you reference writes the mahdis had older weapons) and many other unaccounted and unrecorded factors

Given the paucity of ammo, how many Indians would be able to practise and shoot accurately at 100m using a short barrel with open sights?

Also, may I hearken the sentimental members' attention to the title and nature of the thread. We are not here to wax eloquent on the pistol in question, which has its own merits, very true.

We are here to help the OP make a sensible decision on an ancient firearm being offered at a premium price, in the shadow of our gun laws