Why there is more recoil in IOF cartridge ?

Post by **Grumpy** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:19 pm

"Have any of you tried Lyalvale Express (England) Shells of 42 gms. load and 1 1/4Oz. powder charge???"

Using a 1 1/4 oz powder charge would do more than give you a headache......it would be quite likely to blow your head off !
Please take care to check your facts first before disseminating not only erroneous but downright dangerous information.

shahid · Post by **shahid** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:34 pm

COming to Arindams post, yes there was an error. Arindam meant a shot load of 1 1/4 ounce which is 42 grams ( perhaps).

Powder loaded to fire this load will be close to 4 dram eqivalents. As per the old measure of Black Powder equivalent.

Actual weight in grams and grains will depend upon the ballistic capabilities of this powder, to produce ME and Velocity in equivalent terms of what 4 drams of Black powder produced.

Various powders are different. Evolution from Black Powder to Nitro Cellulose type on wood based chislings and now modern gun powders is an interesting story which I will pen for the benefit of all IFG members to read when I can find some time soon. All this is perfectly OK. Now where was the need for Mehul to monkey in here.

Rifle powder is very different. It requires a seperate article. We will discuss this later.

Post by **Mack The Knife** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:40 pm

Shahid, do all of us a favour and stop being a bleeding bore.

Thank you.

Mack The Knife

shahid · Post by **shahid** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:56 pm

Grumpy is right there. If anyone fires 1 1/4 ounces of modern shotgun powder from a gun, high chances that the barrels will burst and the shooter will be blown off. The firing will be disastrous.

When nitrocellulose based powders came, some ignorant shooters did substitute it dram for dram. The accidents resulting thereof were disastrous.

Post by **Grumpy** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:20 pm

"COming to Arindams post, yes there was an error. Arindam meant a shot load of 1 1/4 ounce which is 42 grams ( perhaps)."

Yeah, definitely `perhaps`. 1 1/4 oz is 35.468 grams.

Post by **Mack The Knife** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:11 am

shahid";p="17332 wrote:What do you mean ? Should we stop posting on guns, ammunition and powders or you want me to post jokes here ? If this a forum about guns and shooting sports what else to post.

What is boring in the post above where gunpowder is being discussed. WOuld you please explain. If you find posts on this forum boring do not log in and browse the various topics plain and simple. Visit some humor sites instead.

Okay matey, that's quite enough lip from you. You have one more card to go.

Mack The Knife

Risala · Post by **Risala** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:26 am

Mack The Knife Bana";p="17384 wrote:

Okay matey, that's quite enough lip from you. You have one more card to go.

Mack The Knife

Mack The Knife,
As long as it is not anything personal,and just something that is being debated wrt arms & ammo should be ok,this is a forum where one is meant to share there expereinces and express their opinions.
Unless I am missing something here.
IMHO what happend earlier today was but a poor attempt to rake in something from the past that was done and dusted just to hurt someones pride.
Now hasnt everybody got a big ego.
I think rather than lead by example,there was definitely a case where the lines were crossed,and this time definitely not by the desert trooper.
Best
Sanjay.

cooldude · Post by **cooldude** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:34 am

Grumpy";p="17308 wrote: "Have any of you tried Lyalvale Express (England) Shells of 42 gms. load and 1 1/4Oz. powder charge???"

Using a 1 1/4 oz powder charge would do more than give you a headache......it would be quite likely to blow your head off !
Please take care to check your facts first before disseminating not only erroneous but downright dangerous information.

shahid";p="17333 wrote: Grumpy is right there. If anyone fires 1 1/4 ounces of modern shotgun powder from a gun, high chances that the barrels will burst and the shooter will be blown off. The firing will be disastrous.

When nitrocellulose based powders came, some ignorant shooters did substitute it dram for dram. The accidents resulting thereof were disastrous.

I still have some in stock and I have used quite a few so when I say that it gives you a headache after a couple of shots I mean it applies to me and not to somebody else so I will not be able to say whether it blows somebody's head off or not and whether the barrels of certain guns can withstand it or not but when I mentioned 42 Gms. of shot load, I meant 42 Gms and when I said Powder load of 1 1/4 Ounce I meant exactly that guys and I never said I was an expert at these things but till date I have not posted anything that I did not have a practical knowledge of because I am not much of the book type. Hope that clarifies things.

Best.

Arindam.

Post by **Grumpy** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:54 am

"and when I said Powder load of 1 1/4 Ounce I meant exactly that guys and I never said I was an expert at these things but till date I have not posted anything that I did not have a practical knowledge of because I am not much of the book type. Hope that clarifies things."

Don`t be ridiculous. 1 1/4 oz of powder would blow your gun to pieces !!!

cooldude · Post by **cooldude** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:00 am

Grumpy";p="17421 wrote: "and when I said Powder load of 1 1/4 Ounce I meant exactly that guys and I never said I was an expert at these things but till date I have not posted anything that I did not have a practical knowledge of because I am not much of the book type. Hope that clarifies things."

Don`t be ridiculous. 1 1/4 oz of powder would blow your gun to pieces !!!

What is so ridiculous Grumpy ? Is there scope for speculation when I have been using it?

shahid · Post by **shahid** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:08 am

Arindam, Grumpy is correct but lets stick to technicals here, nothing personal.

1 1/4 oz of shot is fine. Grumpy calculated the gram weight 2 at the rate of 28 grams to an ounce. Must have a calculator handy or he used his excel sheet. OK.

For this 1 1/4 oz of shot, Lavale would use about 4 dram eqv. of powder. I am not sure but in metric weight the weight of the powder in there would be about 10 to 12 grams. In imperial terms less than half an ounce. This will give a charge of 4 dram eqv.

And for sure, fire it in a light English gun it will produce quite some recoil and firing six of these loads in a spate of 10 minutes will for sure give you a headache.

I was tired the first day in India. The IOF cartridge, KF special was kicking and did give me a headache. Younger guys like Danish were having a field day. I guess he fired at least 12 to 15 rounds.

cooldude · Post by **cooldude** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:14 am

shahid";p="17426 wrote: Arindam, Grumpy is correct but lets stick to technicals here, nothing personal.

1 1/4 oz of shot is fine. Grumpy calculated the gram weight 2 at the rate of 28 grams to an ounce. Must have a calculator handy or he used his excel sheet. OK.

For this 1 1/4 oz of shot, Lavale would use about 4 dram eqv. of powder. I am not sure but in metric weight the weight of the powder in there would be about 10 to 12 grams. In imperial terms less than half an ounce. This will give a charge of 4 dram eqv.

When it says on the Box clearly that the shot load is 42 Gms. and Powder load 1 1/4 of an Ounce what is there to calculate. I will keep some for you to use and see for yourself. Guys, give the other person the benefit of doubt because you are just speculating as to what it should be and I know what it is because I am using it.

shahid · Post by **shahid** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:27 am

If the box says so then you are correct. But 1 1/4 oz of powder is a bit too much. Benefit of doubt goes to you.

PErhaps a misprint or stampings close to each other in the boxes on the pack. Where's it ? Delhi or Bettiah. Will be interested to see.

But Arindam, 1 1/4 oz of a modern powder is simply too much. I will not fire it. It may blow my eardrums off. If you fire it I will stand at least 100 yards away to see the inferno that will emerge.

See if you can manage a pic of the box top. What category of Lavalle Express is it ?? Supreme or Excel ? No these are trap loads. Perhaps some other name.

We do have some ELEY 32 gram no 7 1/2 trap loads. Old cartridges that we got from NRAI in 1986.

Later I had purchased Rottweil 28 gram loads.

Now all we have is 24 gram loads in RC 4 and Lavalle Express Excel. Also some Victory cartridges from Cyprus.

YouTube · Post by **mundaire** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:41 am

http://www.lyalvaleexpress.com/UK/gamec ... me_mag.htm are these the cartridges under discussion?

If so, then it seems to be just a case of confusion. If you look at the table on the bottom of the page, you will see the following -

H.V. Super Game - 36gm (1 1/4oz.)
and
H.V. Super Game 42gm (1 1/2oz.)

It seems to me that the manufacturer is merely stating the weight of the shot load in both metric and imperial... unfortunately the amount of powder used is not mentioned on the site...

shahid · Post by **shahid** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:45 am

Yes this is what I guess. The shot load is given in Imperial and Metric. Few makers mention powder load now. Mostly only American cartridge boxes have them.

I have a box of Western Expert by Winchester made in 1943. My grandfathers. Every cartridge has this info.

No 6, 1 1/8 oz, 3 1/4 dram eqv. . 2 1/2 inch.

For sake of trivia they were purchased for Rs. 16 for 100 ( 4 boxes ) in 1943.

I discovered them in an old trunk in 1988.

Indians For Guns

Indians For Guns

Why there is more recoil in IOF cartridge ?

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