New PSE Stinger 3G Compound Bow

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Re: New PSE Stinger 3G Compound Bow

Post by Mack The Knife » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:06 pm

Rest assured whatever we may do or say on this forum does not seem to affect those in the business of legislating or enforcing the law. If it would have been so there should have been some improvement in the deplorable environment we have regarding arms, legal and otherwise. This is really sad but it is true.
Governments, by and large, prefer not to have heavily armed citizens. In a democracy, the government will almost always pander to the majority. The majority are largely ignorant and lap up whatever the media says. For some time now the media has generally been anti-arms. Should the the media and majority reverse their attitudes towards arms, you can be certain the government will follow suit. Grudingly.
2.c arms act clearly states that "arms" means articles of any description designed or adapted as weapons for offence or defence, and includes firearms, sharp edged and other deadly weapons, and parts of,
It could be argued, that unless you decide to use your bows, knives and guns for defense or offense, they are nothing more than sporting equipment, regardless of how many vermillion tikkas it is festooned with. The above quote should be reason enough not to refer to our guns, knives and bows as weapons.
This is the reason why I believe we can practice our skills in peace.
For how long? It will only take one moron to use a bow irresponsibly and then the antis will come after bows. Assuming it isn't on their agenda already.
in my heart when I pick up my Bow you know what I am thinking
Why, are you a warrior?

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Re: New PSE Stinger 3G Compound Bow

Post by goodboy_mentor » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:19 pm

Rest assured whatever we may do or say on this forum does not seem to affect those in the business of legislating or enforcing the law.
It might appear that whatever we talk here does not have any effect, but in reality it does have effect over a period of time, since all kinds of people visit this forum and read the discussions and ideas. Believe me there are many people connected with business of legislating or enforcing the law who are visiting this forum and reading the views.
I also beg to differ with my friend GBM's observation here as to why the Arms Act does not cover the articles in question.
One of the objectives of Arms Act 1959 says the following:

(a) to exclude knives, spears, bows and arrows and the like from the definition of "arms".
"If my mother tongue is shaking the foundations of your State, it probably means that you built your State on my land" - Musa Anter, Kurdish writer, assassinated by the Turkish secret services in 1992

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Re: New PSE Stinger 3G Compound Bow

Post by BowMan » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:11 pm

Mack The Knife Bana wrote:Why, are you a warrior?
Yes of course.

And I make it a point to abide by the warriors code. This includes rectitude, being mentally and physically prepared, maintaining my equipment, putting in practice and being fully aware of the consequences of use of lethal force.

Should not everyone who picks up a arm (firearm or otherwise) be aware of these things? To me, the "morons' you are referring to is someone who has acquired an arm but is not aware of the responsibility that is associated with it.

This also means not brandishing or displaying it unless it is absolutely required. This is a timeless practice and every Rajput follows this and it inculcates a sense of responsibility in the bearer of arms. For me the Bow is embodiment of traditions that go back thousands of years.

As regards to your comment about vermillon tikkas, well every culture has its own way of respecting arms and I do not think your comment is in good sense and is best withdrawn.

I can dwell deeper into the meanings of shastra pooja and vermillon tikkas but for someone who believes his bows are meant for amusement or to adorn his mantelpiece, I am sure you will be least interested.

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Re: New PSE Stinger 3G Compound Bow

Post by BowMan » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:21 pm

goodboy_mentor wrote:
One of the objectives of Arms Act 1959 says the following:

(a) to exclude knives, spears, bows and arrows and the like from the definition of "arms".
Could you please point me to relevant chapter/section/clause?

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Re: New PSE Stinger 3G Compound Bow

Post by goodboy_mentor » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:06 pm

You will not find the objectives of Arms Act 1959 written within the Arms Act 1959. The Objects and Reasons to be achieved by every law are written on the Bill that is passed by Parliament. The Objects and Reasons of Arms Act 1959 can be read by reading the Indian Arms (Amendment) Bill (No. 49 of 1953). The Objects and Reasons of Arms Act 1959 are also discussed in the Ganesh Chandra Bhatt vs District Magistrate Almora judgment of Allahabad High Court. You can read the judgment here http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/1434833/
"If my mother tongue is shaking the foundations of your State, it probably means that you built your State on my land" - Musa Anter, Kurdish writer, assassinated by the Turkish secret services in 1992

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Re: New PSE Stinger 3G Compound Bow

Post by BowMan » Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:53 pm

I am sorry but the link is about a judgement by Justice. Markandey Katju and in his judgement he does propound the act like you say.

However the actual act does retain provisions of the older piece of British Legislation. This has been discussed before any I believe my friend Mack The Knife is indeed part of that discussion.

http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=149

Please refer Section 2 (c).

By the provisions of Section 4 the Government can regulate acquisition, possession or carrying of arms other than firearms by a simple notification or executive order. No fresh legislation is required.

Please try to understand the linkages between these 2 sections of the act :D

There have been cases where people have been charged with possession of swords and the like.
http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/790513/

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Re: New PSE Stinger 3G Compound Bow

Post by Mack The Knife » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:59 pm

Aaah.... so you are a Rajput and that automatically makes you a warrior. Now I understand! I wonder if being a Bawaji automatically makes me a crack-pot? On second thoughts, don't answer that. :mrgreen:

Regarding the physically fit aspect....Shouldn't a real warrior, especially one as young as you, be able to use (not just draw and shoot a few arrows) a monster weight (whatever that is) Bhil bow or at the very least a moderate weight (@ 60#) stickbow? Why would a physically fit warrior want to use a compound bow with a let-off percentage that even a child could use?

My dear warrior, since I am not a Rajput and don't automatically qualify as a warrior, I can only use my bows for recreation. What to do? Perhaps, I should put a tikka on my bow and gain instant admission into the rank of warriors. :wink: :mrgreen:

In my book, the only way to respect any object is to use it properly and take care of it. The rest are just rituals to be got through for the sake of tradition. Having said that, I would be most intersted in learning about shastra pooja and tikkas. I am neither an aethist nor an iconoclast but rituals, even Parsi one's, aren't my cup of tea. I do enjoy reading about them and the stories and reasons associated with them though.

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Re: New PSE Stinger 3G Compound Bow

Post by goodboy_mentor » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:36 pm

I am sorry but the link is about a judgement by Justice. Markandey Katju
Yes but it talks about Objects and Reasons of Arms Act 1959 which you wanted to read. The arms amendment bill was introduced into Parliament by Justice Katju himself. I have mentioned the link for this judgment since you will not find copy of that Parliamentary Bill online.
in his judgement he does propound the act like you say
His interpretation of arms as fundamental right is slightly different from mine. He interpreted by keeping away most of the legal technicalities and I have tried to interpret mostly on basis of legal technicalities.
By the provisions of Section 4 the Government can regulate acquisition, possession or carrying of arms other than firearms by a simple notification or executive order. No fresh legislation is required.
Yes this matter about Section 4 is already discussed in detail here http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=16750
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Re: New PSE Stinger 3G Compound Bow

Post by Skyman » Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:17 pm

I wonder Bowman, If you are assuming there is some universal " Warriors code " ? To each " warrior " his own set rules or "code".Followers of a certain way of life have a code pertaining to that.

And remember, in any group of people with a social hierarchy, the " Warrior " is not simply some one good at combat or some other skill.It is the ability to make " War " as needed.I don't believe you do so?

Lastly, let me tell you bruce lee's son is not a martial artist because his father was, in the same way one will not have "warrior" qualities because his ancestors did.In no way am i being offensive or racist.Just that i am making the same point Mack The Knife did - Just because some one says so, doesn't mean he is.
I would rather hit my target gently than miss hard.

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Re: New PSE Stinger 3G Compound Bow

Post by BowMan » Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:41 pm

Mack The Knife Bana wrote:Aaah.... so you are a Rajput and that automatically makes you a warrior.
Nope mate, I am not born in a Rajput family.
Now I understand! I wonder if being a Bawaji automatically makes me a crack-pot? On second thoughts, don't answer that.
Indeed I will not answer this as I do not intend to demean somebody's faith. My respects to Bawas and their contribution to society.
Shouldn't a real warrior, especially one as young as you, be able to use (not just draw and shoot a few arrows) a monster weight (whatever that is) Bhil bow or at the very least a moderate weight (@ 60#) stickbow? Why would a physically fit warrior want to use a compound bow with a let-off percentage that even a child could use?
Agree one that one mate. I have gradually come up to owning a compound bow which was the first thing I purchased after saving from my first job and I cherish it as such. The first projectile weapon that I practised on was catapults that I made myself by cutting branches and utilizing tyre tubes and football bladders. Mind you the principles are the same. It is a fact that a compound bow is easiest to shoot and instinctive archery is a skill that really requires tapasya. Interestingly when Indian tribals shoot they do not anchor at the chin or ear but the arrow only comes to about a little more than half draw. Perhaps this is the reason why draw weight is on higher side.

As regards to your concern if I can shoot or not, well I will not choose to brag about it but it is a matter best settled in a friendly match. Let me know if you travel to Gujarat and I will do same when I travel to Bangalore. :cheers:

I will surely post something about the iconography and meanings of shastra puja but just a pointer actually vermillon is something that used as a substitute to the blood of the bearer of the arm. Sacrifice is a common theme in all ancient religions and even the Avesta and Gathas have good number of examples.

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Re: New PSE Stinger 3G Compound Bow

Post by BowMan » Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:53 pm

The arms amendment bill was introduced into Parliament by Justice Katju himself.
Please get your facts right. A Bill can be tabled in discussion in either houses of the Parliament only by a sitting member of the parliament.

For the record Justice Katju has never been a member of either houses of the Parliament.

He is a legal luminary and can give opinion/propose changes to existing laws but that does not imply that he has introduced the bill in parliament. If this were so than Barkha Dutt would table 10 bills every night.

I am beginning to wonder about the soundness of advice being offered on this forum if even some of the more well informed members can make such statements that too pertaining to legal matters like the Arms Act and legality of carry or blade weapons.

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Re: New PSE Stinger 3G Compound Bow

Post by goodboy_mentor » Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:28 pm

Please get your facts right. A Bill can be tabled in discussion in either houses of the Parliament only by a sitting member of the parliament.
Before jumping to conclusions, read the judgment carefully especially point number 12. It is quoted below:
12. The Indian Arms (Amendment) Bill (No. 49 of 1953) was introduced by the undersigned in the Lok Sabha on the 27th November, 1953 to focus Parliament's attention on this vital subject. It was discussed in the House on 26th March, 1954 and was circulated for public opinion.
Who is undersigned? The one who is signing the judgment.
I am beginning to wonder about the soundness of advice being offered on this forum if even some of the more well informed members can make such statements that too pertaining to legal matters like the Arms Act and legality of carry or blade weapons.
Before wondering anything and jumping to conclusions, can you point specific instances were you found "soundness" to be lacking?
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Re: New PSE Stinger 3G Compound Bow

Post by BowMan » Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:54 pm

You might want to double check that GBM.

Justic M. Katju was born in 1946. If as you say he tabled the bill in 1953 then he was 7 years of age when he did so. This has me in raptures.

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Re: New PSE Stinger 3G Compound Bow

Post by goodboy_mentor » Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:01 pm

Ha ha ha! But that is what exactly the judgment is saying and we should respect the "Honorable" High Court! It might be some typing mistake on that website. If you note it is saying the judgment is of Patna High Court but Almora is not in Bihar. His father Dr Kailash Nath Katju was Home Minister in 1953. Surely his father must have introduced the Bill in Lok Sabha.
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Re: New PSE Stinger 3G Compound Bow

Post by BowMan » Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:56 pm

So justice Katju did not introduce the bill after all.

hmm...even considering that this father was Home Minister, the home ministry only introduced 6 pieces of legislation in that year (1953).

Of the six only 3 were passed; The Absorbed Areas (Laws) Bill, 1953, The Scheduled Areas (Assimilation of Laws) Bill, 1953, The Travancore Cochin High Court (Amendment) Bill, 1953.

In fact during the entire year only 31 bills were tabled in the Parliament!!!??? This is also not listed as having been introduced by a private member.

However, let me point out that this debate should be conducted on a separate thread. Let this thread remain about "New PSE Stinger 3G Compound Bow" and not become a debate over the arms act or modern vs traditional archery.

BowMan

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